Renatus I have sent a pm. Hmm of the two posted heads the first one I would say was a barbed spike that has been in stone and lead poured in to hold it ? The second the head looks odd, the torqued shaft are knowen but not like that ? but it looks like it has been put in a ancient square of lead and a vice ? has been used to flatten the lead to hold it on. I would say both are not plumbata heads.
Regards Brennivs ?
Woe Ye The Vanquished
Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
Caratacvs
Centvrio Princeps Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
Renatus no I have had no e-mail yet ? I have enlarged the area and there is no hole for a shaft. Also were the bar goes into the lead the corrosion is wrong to me with no iron oxide staining on the lead. Now while looking through my photos I have a picture of that one, 9/7/2019 is the date I saved it from the web but it was on ebay so I was right to dismiss it I also have seen the York one but I did not have my camera on me
Regards Brennivs ?
Woe Ye The Vanquished
Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
Caratacvs
Centvrio Princeps Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
I sent the e-mail last Tuesday and it was not knocked back. Nevertheless, I may have miss-spelt your address, so I have amended that and sent it again.
Regarding the 'plumbata', I note that something seems to be protruding from the back end and am assuming that this might be one of those in which the junction between the point and the wood shaft is not encased by the lead, so there would be no hole. I have postulated that what protrudes may be the remnants of the socket. Does the lead show any signs of damage from being clamped in a vice?
Michael King Macdona
And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
(02-27-2021, 07:52 PM)Renatus Wrote: I have postulated that what protrudes may be the remnants of the socket.
But even that would need to show a hole of sorts?
(02-12-2021, 12:16 PM)Renatus Wrote:
(02-09-2021, 12:32 AM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: I am not sure what to make of it. The partly torqued shaft is also odd. It's unlike anything I have ever seen, which makes me doubt it.
It's so odd that you might think that it has to be genuine. If it is indeed ancient, I doubt that it could have been made like that originally, which makes me think that it might be a field repair.
Incidentally, I see from your latest list that we have our first example from Turkey. Do we have a context and/or a picture of it?
(02-27-2021, 05:49 PM)brennivs - tony drake Wrote: I also have seen the York one but I did not have my camera on me
A plumbata from York itself?
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Retanus it has a rectangular shape to it, a vice could be used to gently push the lead down to hold the barb which may leave no sign of use. But it is my guess work
Robert the one from York was on sale in a antique shop I saw it a few years ago, I cannot remember where it was found but it was UK it was a good size head, similar looking as this but more of a barb on it, if memory serves me well
Regards Brennivs
Woe Ye The Vanquished
Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
Caratacvs
Centvrio Princeps Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
32 from Serbia
30 from Britain
17 from Slovenia
15 from Italy
15 from Austria
14 from France
10 from Hungary
9 from Croatia
7 from Germany
7 from Switzerland
5 from Georgia/Abchasia 5 from Rumania (up from 4)
3 from Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 from Bulgaria
3 from Greece
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
1 from Belgium
1 from Slovakia
1 from Turkey
117 from doubtful or unprovenanced origins (up from 100)
Total 299
The new one from Romania is very interesting, because the archaeologist dates it very early: "according to the context, to the end of the 2nd century and the beginning of the 3rd century". Which is indeed quite early for a plumbata, because by far the most dated finds do not appear a century or more later.
The updated map:
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
It's been over a year since I posted this update. I will do penance.
Currently there are 184 published finds (+2):
32 from Serbia
30 from Britain
17 from Slovenia
15 from Italy
15 from Austria
15 from France (up from 14)
10 from Hungary
9 from Croatia
7 from Germany
7 from Switzerland
5 from Georgia/Abchasia
5 from Rumania
3 from Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 from Bulgaria
3 from Greece
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
1 from Belgium
1 from North Macedonia (new)
1 from Slovakia
1 from Turkey
118 from doubtful or unprovenanced origins (up from 117)
Total 302
The new one from North Macedonia is the first from that country, but also a late one: 5th to 6th c.
The updated map:
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
32 from Serbia
30 from Britain
17 from Slovenia
15 from Italy
15 from Austria
15 from France
10 from Hungary
9 from Croatia
9 from Switzerland (up from 7)
7 from Germany
5 from Georgia/Abchasia
5 from Rumania
3 from Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 from Bulgaria
3 from Greece
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
1 from Belgium
1 from North Macedonia
1 from Slovakia
1 from Turkey
123 from doubtful or unprovenanced origins (up from 118)
Total 309 (+7)
I leave you with a nice picture of a plumbata from an unknown origin and two plumbatae from the Ljubljana museum.
Robert Vermaat MODERATOR FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
so I was right to dismiss it 
I also have seen the York one but I did not have my camera on me 
it was a good size head, similar looking as this but more of a barb on it, if memory serves me well 
