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Plumbata
This argument is going round in circles and I'm getting fed up with it. Let me try to make my position clear and then give up.  Please bring your sword so I can give it back to you.

Your whole argument seems to have been that Americans know how to throw and Europeans don't. If I have misinterpreted it, that is how it has come over. I do not believe you understand what I have been saying at all.  Europeans don't look at the plumbata in the same manner as Americans because our perspective is different.  That Europeans do not know how to throw (relative to Americans) is empirically true.  That is why the studies in this area are so fatally-flawed, studies which you defend by saying that 'two of them mention wind direction'.    Faint praise indeed.  They don't even attempt to throw as I advocate.  You maintain that I am saying all sorts of things without actually showing me where I said that.  I am not saying that Roman soldiers could under no circumstances have reached the same standard. That would be absurd. What I am saying is that we cannot assume it and base our analysis on that assumption. It is possible that some may have reached that standard but many, probably the majority, will not. I, therefore, prefer the middling position, neither super-competent nor wholly inadequate but somewhere in between, which conforms to the human condition. Ah yes, Romans striving to be mediocre.

You assume that the appropriate grip is at the end of the shaft behind the flights, which you apparently consider to justify your conclusion that a baseball-style of throw is the correct one. This is not unequivocally established. It is a grip adopted by researchers who felt that a javelin-style delivery did not produce a long enough range. What I want to see is how far a plumbata can be thrown javelin-style after a lengthy period of intense training. Would be good piece of data to have.  After all, that is what the Romans were used to. They were also used to spear-throwing and were practiced in throwing rocks.  They had no need, necessarily, to devise some exotic (lol. see shepherds/rocks statement above.  I mean, where does this come from.  Exotic? This just exhibits a complete lack of understanding.) and form of delivery outside their natural expertise. There appear to be indications that this could satisfy Vegetius' contention that plumbatae outranged javelins, (81 meters outranges javelins.  Vegetius is appeased)).so let a concerted effort be made to see if this can be achieved. It is, frankly, all we need. Only if you have no interest in taking Roman technology to its peak capabilities, an act that is illuminative.  Is there no Marcus Juenkelmann here?  Ranges of great length are an indulgence.  Not if you are a soldier watching the enemy in formation coming at you 100 meters away.

EDIT  The addition to your post was added while I was formulating my reply. I do not dissent from any of that.
Great!  That's a nice start for us to have a discussion.  That discussion I shall put on hold for a while as I have some other commitments at the moment, mostly revolving  guitars and football.  (American football,  You know, the sport where the players do their best to NOT fall down. :winkSmile

Sorry you are fed up, Michael.  I have answered all your points directly and forthrightly.  I have enjoyed the exchange and I regard you highly for having the honesty to challenge me in public.  By voicing your critiques and by my responding we have combined to further enhance the credibility of my work.  For that I thank you.

Next!

Brucicus at the Bridge
Bruce Pruett
Assume any Latin words appearing in my posts are just guesses.
Vertrauen ist gut.  Kontrolle ist besser.
Kennen Sie den hessischen Wurstart der mit "U" anfaengt?   Huh   Uffschnitt!

The toughest steel goes through the hottest fire.
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Most of this I'm not going to bother to reply to but there is one point I will pick up on.

(01-06-2019, 07:40 PM)Brucicus Wrote:
(01-06-2019, 06:40 PM)Renatus Wrote: What I want to see is how far a plumbata can be thrown javelin-style after a lengthy period of intense training. Would be good piece of data to have.
 
You have a plumbata (of sorts) and two sons. Let's see what they come up with.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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Three more plumbatae turning up on the internet. The largest (unknown origin) is fairly large and heavy (170 mm and almost 200 gr):

   

The other two (supposedly from Croatia) are of more common length (138 and 117 mm). The larger one shows perfectly how the lead was poored on the connection between the iron head and the wooden shaft:

   

Currently there are 175 published finds:

31 from Serbia
30 from Britain
16 from Slovenia
15 from Italy
15 from Austria
14 from France
10 from Hungary
9 from Croatia
7 from Germany
7 from Switzerland
5 from Georgia/Abchasia
4 from Rumania
3 from Bulgaria
3 from Greece
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
1 from Belgium
1 from Slovakia

91 from doubtful or unprovenanced origins (up from 88)
Total 267
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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Thanks for the update Robert  Wink
Regards Brennivs  Big Grin
Woe Ye The Vanquished
                     Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
                     Caratacvs
Centvrio Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
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A very nice plumbata from Schaan (Liechtenstein):

   


And the usual update:
Currently there are 176 published finds:

31 from Serbia
30 from Britain
16 from Slovenia
15 from Italy
15 from Austria
14 from France
10 from Hungary
9 from Croatia
7 from Germany
7 from Switzerland
5 from Georgia/Abchasia
4 from Rumania
3 from Bulgaria
3 from Greece
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
1 from Belgium
1 from Slovakia
1 from Turkey (new)

91 from doubtful or unprovenanced origins
Total 268
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
A new year, a new update.

First a new map:
   

Currently there are 181 published finds:

32 from Serbia (up from 31)
30 from Britain
17 from Slovenia (up from 16)
15 from Italy
15 from Austria
14 from France
10 from Hungary
9 from Croatia
7 from Germany
7 from Switzerland
5 from Georgia/Abchasia
4 from Rumania
3 from Bosnia-Herzegovina (all new) 
3 from Bulgaria
3 from Greece
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
1 from Belgium
1 from Slovakia
1 from Turkey

100 from doubtful or unprovenanced origins (up from 91)
Total 281

Two unknown plumbatae from a random internet site:

   
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
(01-07-2020, 07:14 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: First a new map:

Interesting to see where the major concentrations lie - are you able to pinpoint them more exactly? Does the red patch in England approximate Chester/Deva, for example?

The three red patches in the Balkans appear to fall approximately (from left to right) on the Frigidus, Siscia/Sisak (both major late 4th C battles, of course) and Naissus/Nis. Or are they not that closely concentrated in reality?
Nathan Ross
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(01-07-2020, 07:41 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(01-07-2020, 07:14 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: First a new map:

Interesting to see where the major concentrations lie - are you able to pinpoint them more exactly? Does the red patch in England approximate Chester/Deva, for example?

The three red patches in the Balkans appear to fall approximately (from left to right) on the Frigidus, Siscia/Sisak (both major late 4th C battles, of course) and Naissus/Nis. Or are they not that closely concentrated in reality?


I can but I won't, at least not for most of them - I'm still working on a publication and adding too many details would give away some information that I have Wink

But I can divulge the red dots because that info is already public:
The red dot in Britain is Wroxeter/Viroconium Cornoviorum, where remains of no less than 10 plumbatae were found.
Aquileia is the red dot in Italy with even more - possibly 13!
Sisak/Siscia is indeed the next one with 7.
The last one is Gamzigrad/Felix Romuliana, also with 7. 

All are fortified sites, with possibly the exception of Siscia, where most finds come from the river. I have some battle sites, but these are mostly from roads through mountains.

What you can see is of course the limes of the Late Empire, which you might be able to follow from the Danube the the Rhine even if you didn't know it. Another hotspot is the route through the mountains from Illyria into Italy, several routes in fact that were heavily defended with forts and even fortifications - the Late Roman claustra Alpium Iuliarum linear defence system. 
I can recommend this publication btw, great reading:
https://www.claustra.org/wp-content/uplo...liarum.pdf 

Britain is still a strange hotspot with 30 - only Serbia has more but one would expect that. Even though Turkey has not yielded its first plumbata the lack of them in the Near East is still puzzling to me. 
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Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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Robert Vermaat Wrote:I'm still working on a publication

Now that's something I look forward to seeing.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(01-08-2020, 11:47 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: with possibly the exception of Siscia, where most finds come from the river.

Thanks! Yes, didn't the fighting at Siscia in 388 involve a contested river crossing, in fact? But we should not jump to conclusions! I too look forward to seeing your further publication.


(01-08-2020, 11:47 PM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: I can recommend this publication btw, great reading:
https://www.claustra.org/wp-content/uplo...liarum.pdf

It certainly is - thanks again.
Nathan Ross
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Excellent work Robert Wink and I also look forward to your publication  Smile
Regards Brennivs  Big Grin
Woe Ye The Vanquished
                     Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
                     Caratacvs
Centvrio Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
Reply
Thanks for the comments guys, although the promised publication may be some time away. I am an abysmally slow writer and there is still so much to do..

A better map:

   
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
All:

There is a new document on testing plumbatae available at
www.academia.edu/42176281/Re-Testing_Plumbatae._Setting_the_Record_Straight_via_Experience_Experimentation_and_the_Examination_of_Historical_Sources

Enjoy!
Bruce Pruett
Assume any Latin words appearing in my posts are just guesses.
Vertrauen ist gut.  Kontrolle ist besser.
Kennen Sie den hessischen Wurstart der mit "U" anfaengt?   Huh   Uffschnitt!

The toughest steel goes through the hottest fire.
Reply


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