01-28-2006, 11:32 PM
Quote:Ok, but then the pilum is a weapon which takes more skill and time to make, while the plumbata is a mass-produced one, which was probably designed foe a high rate of production. How does it take to produce a pilum?Vortigern Studies:3i2gz6mu Wrote:That sounds way too complicated.Well, it isn't really. After all, Peter Connolly's experiments of throwing
the various types of pila show that there was also a considerable range
of weights for these, too. In fact, I think there was a similar range of
weights to your plumbatae, with the lightest pila being around o.5 kilos
and the heaviest (Renieblas) almost 2 kilos.
My point is that my assumption is that using weight and moulds for varying ranges would make less sense if you can achieve that by other means, without compromising the rate of production in any way.
Quote:With the lightest having the longest ranges, and the heaviest the shortest. We don't even know how the pila were thrown. Did only the front ranks throw? Did they throw and rotate with the ones behind to maintain a constant barage (in some situations)? Did a depth of six ranks all throw together, using the same weight of pilum? Did six ranks throw together, but with a range of weights to their pila, so that they all landed at the same range? And the same questions could be asked for plumbatae.Indeed, and we don't have answers there either. I'm not for a 'rotation system' between ranks, because that creates a sort of confusion which can cost you the battle in case of a fast determined attack.
The only difference between pila and plumbatae that I can see so far is that you can aim a pilum at a target, but not a plumbatae - if we're talking ranges where it would matter to use different weights. At point blank range is a different ballgame.
Quote: We know from Arrian's formation to counter the Alans that he orderedFrom what I've read so far, that's exactly the same tactics for plumbatae as well as other javelins.
the front ranks to use their weapons (pila/spears?) as pikes, to halt the
cavalry charge, while the ranks behind indeed did throw their pila over
the heads of the front ranks. Maybe the same tactics were used for
plumbatae. If you want a depth of six or eight ranks all to throw at once
for maximum firepower, the you might want them to have different
weights of plumbatae so as to converge at a particular range.
Now, can you tell me if there were differnet weighted pila used in a battle? If so, that could mean something similar for plumbatae. If not, my best guess is local differences in production.
Quote: As Mithras & Aitor point out, overarm gives more predictability (without necessarily compromising the range).Oh, I think so. Any test done so far shows that underarm gets you the best range. If not, I hope Aitor and Mithras can enlighten me.
Quote:Maybe in combat what you might sometimes want is a uniform motion from all ranks with varying weights to give variation in the ranges. The truth is, we don't even know if the Romans used over/underarm or both.Nope, we don't. Worse, we still don't know at all when plumbatae were thrown, or which command was used.
Quote:Sure, there would be some variation. But a mould should give you aAh, but don't get me wrong, these plumbatae are not uniformly shaped. Some have a metal shaft instead of a wooden one, which of course contributes to their weight...
reasonably reproducible weight of lead each time. If there's a difference
of between 38 and 180+ grams then these were obviously made from
different sized moulds. Different moulds for differnent ranges? Of course,
maybe not all these weights would be in use at the same time, since
pilum weights varied through history. Maybe plumbatae weights might
have increased or decreased over time.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)