Thread Rating:
  • 2 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Plumbata
A very interesting suggestion John. I did not know about Medieval arrows before. Thanks!
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Hi phalanx,

Please add your real (first) name to your signature. Forum rules.

Quote: I've recently made a handfull of plumbata. I tried to make them as accurately as possible, but some things I was not able to replicate. Most notably was the tip. I don't have a way to make a barbed head, and my experiments with arrow heads lead to a lot of them being lost in the ground after I retrieve them. I had to use a simple metal rod instead for the metal shank.
Here's a link to my Flickr set: [url:23zppkmm]http://www.flickr.com/photos/24359577@N02/sets/72157622091632489/[/url]
They look quite well for a first attempt.

Quote: I'm turning to you all, the experts, to critique my work. How can I make mine more historically accurate? What areas can I improve?
I'd say, cut some off from the point, about 3 to 5 cm will do fine and decrese the forces on the shaft upon impact. they may last longer.
Second, maybe cut the front tips from the flights, to make it more aerodynamic?
I read you are going to make heavier ones. I came to the opposite conclusion - lighter seems to fly better. What are the current measurements? How far did you throw them?

Quote: I do have another question, as well. When exactly were these fearsome weapons used? I've seen "the late empire" all over the place, but when does that translate to approximately in years? About when are some of the recovered plumbata dated?
It's impossible to be sure, but they seem to have appeared during the later decades of the 3rd century AD, continued in use throughout the 4th c. and maybe the 5th. But then it's no longer possible to tell much. The East Roman empire for sure used them during the 6th and possibly 7th centuries, but by far the most finds are from the West, and dated (wherever possible) to the 4th c.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
15th century arrow shafts are often shaped in different ways to maximise performance. But we don't see the same profiles in surviving Roman arrow shafts.

Heavy darts, up to a point, do travel further than light darts. In every show I secretly collect the heavy darts from the group equipment bags to get maximum distance from my throws. But don't tell everyone. Big Grin
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
Reply
But I knew you were doing that John,because I'm on the other end of the throw :wink:
Fasta Ambrosius Longus
John

We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

[Image: Peditum3.jpg]
Reply
I've just been sent a DVD showing you pushing others in the way of the dart as they hit the formation. Repeatedly. Good show!
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
Reply
Well I hope you don't expect me to just stand there :lol:
Check your regular e-mails I've sent you something :roll:
Fasta Ambrosius Longus
John

We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

[Image: Peditum3.jpg]
Reply
There's a nice barbed plumbata head illustrated in 'edited by moderator due to violation of forum rule # 4' s on-line catalogue, ancients one, lot 50 some 14 cm long and in good condition. If you right-click on the photo, you get very large magnification and can examine it in detail.

link edited by moderator due to violation of forum rule # 4
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
VERY good condition. Maybe even too good? The points of the barbs are extremely well preserved. So where's the wooden shaft, then? :|
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Yes indeed, Robert - the condition is suspiciously good.......I was hoping that use of the magnifying tool might give insight there, but I guess any degree of corrosion/patina can be reproduced..... Sad (
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
Apologies for any unintended breach of rules....it seems that although I tried to link direct to the picture, which is permitted by the rules, there is an "automatic diversion" to the site Home Page, which is not permitted by the rules Sad

Anyway to save inconveniencing readers, here is the picture.....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
This looks very much like a fake! Robert sent me a lot of pictures and drawings on plumbata so I could reproduce the technique to make them. From what I have learned, plumbata were very crudely forged weapons, the bards cut from the head by first forging a leafshaped head and then cutting the bards from the stem with a chisel or a pair of pliers (or a sharp fullering tool) and bending them out a bit. Hardly ever is this done symetrical. So this forger needs to studie his forging :lol:
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
Reply
Quote: Robert sent me a lot of pictures and drawings on plumbata so I could reproduce the technique to make them.
Which reminds me... have you made any progress? Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Yep, have the technique cracked. And as the weather has once again turned to great smithing weather (cold, wet and windy) I will be making you a few very soon. Have the Worexter one finished, sending you a picture tonight. Replicating these down to the last mm is however tricky, as most appear to have been roughly hammered from scrap iron. Different shapes/types are no problem, though.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
Reply
How's the progress on the plumbatae coming along?
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Well, making plumbata seems to be basicly a two man job. It is VERY frustrating trying to do these on one's own, which is why things have taken a whole lot longer then I thought. So I am extending an invitation to come over one rainy day to make yourself a whole lot of them. Just bring a bag of genuine lumpy charcoal and some sharp pliers Big Grin
Basicly, the technique is very simple, they all seem to follow the same form. For those interested, make a leafshaped head, thin the stock a bit behing the head to start the shaft, cut the bards at the base of the leafshape in the same plane as the shaft. Then, either make a triangular flange, flattening and spreading the stock and then roll that into an open socket or point the shaft to make it tanged. It doesn't really matter which part one does first (head or socket), but as the chances of ruining the head are real if working alone, I tended to start with that. Making a plumbata head can be done in about 15 minutes and then perhaps 5 more for some filing if wanted.
The part that needs a second pair of hands is cutting the bards. The Romans also most likely used a pair of pliers for those, there is iconographic evidence showing they had pliers. But you need someone to hold the stock so the other one can grip the head with the pliers, give it one or two solid whacks to detache the barbs at each side. Same for a sharp chisel, by the way.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
Reply


Forum Jump: