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Plumbata
Quote:...the one on the right could have had barbs...if you squint and tilt your head to the left
Yes I know. :wink: I meant that balista bolt (I think) didn't have barbs.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Oh, I see! :oops:

Strange thing for an archaeologist to say, but I think I'll stop digging now! :lol:

Sadly my jolly holiday of two weeks in Arbeia and unfettered access to Hadrian's Wall, the forts and the museums is about to come to an end, but I have lots to ponder over the winter months...sigh...
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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I've been testing plumbatae on the beach again.. report will follow soon.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Hi David,

Re. Your question about the possibility of carrying plumbatae in leather quivers as mentioned by Maurice in the Strategikon, here’s a summary of the discussion:

The English translation of the inventory mentioned in 12.B.4 is: "They should also carry lead-pointed darts in leather cases or slings".
I've discussed this with dr. Philip Rance, who disagrees with both Kolias and Völling about their translation of the text:

Quote:Philip Rance wrote:
“It is not possible to be certain whether Maurice requires heavy infantry (skoutatoi) to have one or more martiobarbuli, because all the equipment in the inventory at 12.B.4 is in the plural, whether each soldier had one of that item or several. I have assumed, on the basis of earlier precedent and intrinsic likelihood, that each man has more than one. The language of 12.B.20 also implies that each man has several. Maurice says nothing about their cases. The issue is slightly confused at 12.B.6 where the text reads that each contubernium should have a cart containing, among other tools and equipment, "a martiobarboulon" (in the singular), though I think this must be an error and should be in the plural - whether we think that this was a dart or a mace there seems no reason why a contubernium of 8 men should be issued with just one! I have assumed that these are extra martiobarbuli, in addition to those included in each man's equipment at 12.B.4. Although Maurice specifies that martiobarbuli should be part of the equipment of heavy infantry (12.B.4) and that they should be trained to use them (12.B.2), he also envisages their use by light infantry (12.B.12) and even wagon-drivers in the baggage-train (12.B.18).”

Of the exact nature of the quiver in which the darts are to be held the text says nothing (apparently, this was self-evident), but the text is clearly not mentioning anything about carrying plumbatae inside a shield, the method mentioned by Vegetius.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
That's just the info I needed for my non-RAT friend. Hard to believe, but some people still aren't members.:?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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Does anybody perhaps have access to this article:

• László Rupnik (2009): New plumbata mamillata find from Szentendrem, in: Ex Officina... Studia in honorem Dénes Gabler, pp. 491-500.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Thanks Marcus and Siggi!
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
This topic came up a few years ago, and thanks to Siggi I just read another article about it:
Estiot, Sylviane (2008): Sine arcu sagittae: la représentation numismatique de plumbatae / mattiobarbuli aux IIIe-IVe siècles (279-307 de n.e.), in: Numismatische Zeitschrift vol. 116/117, pp. 177-201.

Estiot sadly repeats some pieces of non-information about plumbatae (such as the test distances and the incident never mentioned by Procopius), but she also shows at least one clear example of a late-3rd centurty coin which not only clearly shows an areus of Maximianus (286 AD) on which the emperor holds a very short, barbed missile, according to Estiot WITH a weight.
More coins show the very short missiles, but are not detailed enough to show the weights (and Aitor was right: ‘no weights, no plumbata’). I must say however that this new one shifts my position a bit: at least the missiles are barbed, plus they are short (too short for a javelin), plus at least one could really show something that looks like a weight. The dating is early but OK (the terminus post quem for plumbatae is 274 AD).

Quote:Christodoulou refers to plumbatae on coins in his Gamzigrad article: "[..] Maximianus Herculius and Maximianus Daia are represented on coins each armed with three barbed javelins [..]"
There's an article about plumbtae shown on coins, that I have not read yet:
Boon, G.C. (1991): 'Martiobarbuli coins', in: The Antiquaries Journal 71, pp. 247-50.
Quote:Ango, spicula, verutum... :?
Not a plumbata, I think....
Aitor
Quote:When I look at these coins, what is the emperor carrying over his shoulder?
[Image: Crispus-RICVII-NIR-eSIS-a-G5-TN.jpg]
[Image: ConstantineI-RICVII-NIR-gSIS-53v-H6-TN.jpg]
[Image: ConstantineI-RICVII-192-PARL-TN.jpg]
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
A few years ago I answered this:
Quote:I have information about up to 121 plumbatae. I like to think that it's quite a database.
And earlier:
Quote:I know 47 locations in the Eastern part of the Empire, to which can be added 15 “unsure” ones. I would expect far fewer finds from the western provinces, even though troop rotations would mean the use of the plumbata with Eastern units possible in the West too. So far, none have turned in Belgium, The Netherlands, Portugal or Spain. I know 4 from Germany (though that number may grow), 7 from France, 1 from western Italy, 3 from western Austria, 3 from Switzerland, 1 from Liechtenstein.
But 26 from Britain and that’s the big surprise. So far, the highest number for a country, for a diocese even.

This is the current toll (still rising, I’m still following some German trails):

27 from Britain
1 from The Netherlands
5 from Germany
9 from France
7 from Switzerland
1 from Liechtenstein
15 from Austria ( a steep rise!)
1 from Slovakia
10 from Hungary
8 from Italy
12 from Slovenia
6 from Croatia
30 from Serbia
2 from Rumania
1 from Bulgaria
3 from Greece (but the dates are problematic and possibly BC)
4 from Georgia/Abchasia

That totals 142 plumbatae from publications which includes a find spot, some measurements and most of the time a description.
To that total of 142, I can add 21 plumbatae that are either unprovenanced or from some sort of internet auction. I cannot vouch for these being either originals or from the areas they are supposedly found in. A further 8-11 are totally unprovenanced and might even be modern forgeries.
The grand total stands at 173 (June 24th, 2011).
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Quote:I've been testing plumbatae on the beach again.. report will follow soon.
Oops! I forgot to post the link: http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/testplumbata2.htm

The test site:
[Image: plumbatae2011_1.jpg]

The plumbatae:
[Image: plumbatae2011_4.jpg]

Some conclusions:
1 – The distances of 50+ metres that I had in mind were by no means reached. The reason for that may be that the weight is too small. Or (like in 2007) that I just can’t throw properly.
2 – Based on this test, throwing underarm hardly differed from throwing overarm.
3 - Based on this test, lighter missiles outperform heavier missiles when thrown overarm.
4 - Based on this test, heavier missiles outperform lighter missiles when thrown underarm.
5 – Based on this test, feathered flights may have a positive effect.
6 – Based on this test, lighter missiles allow for a much longer period of continuous throwing.
7 - Lighter missiles may not fly a greater distance than heavier ones.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Whoa! Excellent info and material Vortigern, you really have done your homework!
Quintus Furius Collatinus

-Matt
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Thank you Stefan for posting that link yesterday.

That and other plumbata articles available online:

Allason-Jones, L. (1993): Small Finds, in: P J Casey and J L Davies with J Evans: Excavations at Segontium (Caernarfon) Roman Fort, 1975-1997, CBA Research report 90, pp. 165-210 (fig 10.12: nrs. 275-77), at: http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/library/cba/rr90.cfm.

Ettlinger, E. (1959): Die Kleinfunde aus dem spätrömischen Kastell Schaan, in: Jahrbuch des Historischen Vereins für das Fürstentum Liechtenstein vol. 59, 1959, 229-299, pl. 1-13.
http://www.eliechtensteinensia.li/JBHV/1...Schaan.pdf

Marchant, David (1993): Spearheads from Segontium, in: P J Casey and J L Davies with J Evans: Excavations at Segontium (Caernarfon) Roman Fort, 1975-1997, CBA Research report 90, pp. 189, Fig.5, at: http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/library/cba/rr90.cfm.

Pflaum, Veronika (2007): The supposed Late Roman hoard of tools and a steelyard from Vodice near Kalce, in: Arheološki Vestnik, vol. 58, pp 296-7 and fig. 9. http://av.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/58/AV_58_Pflaum.pdf

Vujović, Miroslav B. (2009): The Plumbata from Serbia, in: Journal of the Serbian Archaeological Society vol 25, pp. 203-219. https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=e...y=CMnY-ZIB
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Thank you Robert

And thank you to Stefan for sending me a copy of his paper too. (I couldn't get the link to work on his other thread though!)
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Reply
I received 5 brilliant plumbata heads from Tony Drake (Brennius).
They certainly look the part! Weight is very good too: they are resp. 96, 102, 108, 110 and 124 grams, just right if you look at average weights of the plumbatae found so far.
Needless to say, I'm very happy with them!

[Image: IMG_2539.jpg]
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Wow,
very very good!
The head is integrally forged or soldered?
CIAO from Italy

Marco
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