12-13-2018, 06:36 PM
Ahhh, the joy of learning a new posting system: I accidentally erased my response while trying to fix my signature. And I used to market supercomputers around the world.
I'll have a go at it again.
Robert: We live at 2000ft, so the last weather was only sleet here. Five miles up the road (Highway 88) chains were needed. Wet and cold caused a nice wild mushroom flush so I've been feasting on steinpilze (aka cepes, porcini) the last 10 days.
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Robert wrote:
Two things about throwing plumbatae:
1 - the dart is not a perfectly balanced object and it does not behave like .e.g an arrow or a well-made spear (or a ball). Athough it can be aimed over short distances (where throwing overhand is recommended), this is generally recognised as a mass-thrown weapon the aim is not an individual target.
2 - the preferred impact of a plumbata is from a high angle. As you observed, the arching throw is much easier to achieve underhanded, which is probably why most of the modern testing almost always achieves larger distances with underhand throws.
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Admittedly, I have never thrown a plumbata, but I've thrown plenty of rocks of different shapes and they seem to hold true to their initial trajectory pretty well, even without a vaned guidance device being attached. I can imagine a poorly cast dart tending to veer left or right (slice vs hook if you are a golfer) due to the effect of centrifugal force, but at the distances these are meant to be thrown I wonder if that force would have enough flight time to significantly counteract the initial thrust of the throw. Arrows may be quite a bit more accurate, but they were fired in volleys en masse as well. I don't think the en masse delivery necessarily speaks to the accuracy of an object. Slingers were known to be extraordinarily accurate - but they 'slung' in groups too.
OH throws are less susceptible to wind than UH because the higher arc of the plumbata in an UH throw means less forward momentum to counteract the wind's effect. At the peak of the arc the plumbatae reach their slowest speed and are highly susceptible to outside influence.
Another factor is that UH throws lose accuracy the more forceful the throw. I played a version of baseball where the pitcher was required to deliver (lob) the ball to a 6 foot diameter plate 45 feet away... and the ball had to reach a minimum height of 20 feet. No maximum height was imposed, so literally the sky was the limit. It would have been to the pitcher's advantage to throw a very high ball, but no one could because they wouldn't be able to hit the plate consistently. So if I am in the back ranks of a formation in contact with the enemy I am only tossing my plumbatae about 30 feet or so high because that's about the limit of my accuracy. Don't need sharp, heavy objects falling on my brothers in the front ranks. But at a distance it is easy to OH throw a high arcing shot -perhaps not as high as the UH toss, but with much more forward momentum.
I question the preferred impact at a high angle assumption as well. Missiles dropping straight down on my troops are much easier to defend against than those same missiles coming in at, say, 45 degrees. How do you defend against that with your smaller shield if you are a barbarian? Consider; to the thrower, a plumbata in an enemy's foot or leg is almost as good as one in the head. Aside from the defense issue, some posters in this thread have noticed that angled strikes frequently result in broken shafts. I believe that to be a feature in that denies the darts' use to the enemy.
Underhand (UH) is easier for throwing because of how humans are built. And it is easier because we cannot develop the power, and consequently suffer the stress, that is developed by throwing overhand (OH). Frankly, I question the methodology of those who find superior distance UH vs. OH. Not to denigrate anyone! My experience in introducing American ballsports to Europeans is that the Europeans have real problems with proper form and mechanics in making OH throws. There just isn't the knowledge base in Europe on how to correct throwing form issues. However, if you want a laugh, watch me try to play soccer.
A question comes to mind - if UH throws are best for distance, why is it that no military known to me teaches the UH throw for hand grenades? Even the German Stielgranaten were thrown overhand. I did qualify "expert" in grenades while in the US Army, btw.
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Robert wrote:
Not all ranks need to threw at once, so they did not need to open up in order to avoid hitting the man in front ........
If I have a legion under my command I am sure going to try and find a way to get as many darts in the air as I can. IF the Romans delivered pilae en masse (if), then they could do the same with the plumbatae. I haven't bought into the back-lines-feed-the-front-lines discussion. I just don't see that working when the front lines are in contact. As for cavalry attacks and the like, with an OH throw it would indeed be possible for all ranks to engage. Try that UH and you have some real problems. Not even a quincunx-style formation is adequate because the back ranks would still have a friendly 3-5 meters directly in front of them. Too early a release, a slip from sweaty hands, and boom! your buddy Flavius Targetus is now involuntarily donating his equipment to his successor...if you catch my drift. See how brave you are by standing 3 meters in front of a compatriot who is trying to throw UH for distance to get the sense of what I am saying.
And finally (for this particular post), there is only one way to be hit by a plumbata thrown UH... be at the terminus point of its trajectory. With the OH throw and a lower trajectory, anything in the line of its flight is in danger.
Thanks so much for the discussion. You may be surprised, but there are few opportunities to argue (in the academic sense) about Roman weapons and battle tactics in California.
I'll have a go at it again.
Robert: We live at 2000ft, so the last weather was only sleet here. Five miles up the road (Highway 88) chains were needed. Wet and cold caused a nice wild mushroom flush so I've been feasting on steinpilze (aka cepes, porcini) the last 10 days.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert wrote:
Two things about throwing plumbatae:
1 - the dart is not a perfectly balanced object and it does not behave like .e.g an arrow or a well-made spear (or a ball). Athough it can be aimed over short distances (where throwing overhand is recommended), this is generally recognised as a mass-thrown weapon the aim is not an individual target.
2 - the preferred impact of a plumbata is from a high angle. As you observed, the arching throw is much easier to achieve underhanded, which is probably why most of the modern testing almost always achieves larger distances with underhand throws.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Admittedly, I have never thrown a plumbata, but I've thrown plenty of rocks of different shapes and they seem to hold true to their initial trajectory pretty well, even without a vaned guidance device being attached. I can imagine a poorly cast dart tending to veer left or right (slice vs hook if you are a golfer) due to the effect of centrifugal force, but at the distances these are meant to be thrown I wonder if that force would have enough flight time to significantly counteract the initial thrust of the throw. Arrows may be quite a bit more accurate, but they were fired in volleys en masse as well. I don't think the en masse delivery necessarily speaks to the accuracy of an object. Slingers were known to be extraordinarily accurate - but they 'slung' in groups too.
OH throws are less susceptible to wind than UH because the higher arc of the plumbata in an UH throw means less forward momentum to counteract the wind's effect. At the peak of the arc the plumbatae reach their slowest speed and are highly susceptible to outside influence.
Another factor is that UH throws lose accuracy the more forceful the throw. I played a version of baseball where the pitcher was required to deliver (lob) the ball to a 6 foot diameter plate 45 feet away... and the ball had to reach a minimum height of 20 feet. No maximum height was imposed, so literally the sky was the limit. It would have been to the pitcher's advantage to throw a very high ball, but no one could because they wouldn't be able to hit the plate consistently. So if I am in the back ranks of a formation in contact with the enemy I am only tossing my plumbatae about 30 feet or so high because that's about the limit of my accuracy. Don't need sharp, heavy objects falling on my brothers in the front ranks. But at a distance it is easy to OH throw a high arcing shot -perhaps not as high as the UH toss, but with much more forward momentum.
I question the preferred impact at a high angle assumption as well. Missiles dropping straight down on my troops are much easier to defend against than those same missiles coming in at, say, 45 degrees. How do you defend against that with your smaller shield if you are a barbarian? Consider; to the thrower, a plumbata in an enemy's foot or leg is almost as good as one in the head. Aside from the defense issue, some posters in this thread have noticed that angled strikes frequently result in broken shafts. I believe that to be a feature in that denies the darts' use to the enemy.
Underhand (UH) is easier for throwing because of how humans are built. And it is easier because we cannot develop the power, and consequently suffer the stress, that is developed by throwing overhand (OH). Frankly, I question the methodology of those who find superior distance UH vs. OH. Not to denigrate anyone! My experience in introducing American ballsports to Europeans is that the Europeans have real problems with proper form and mechanics in making OH throws. There just isn't the knowledge base in Europe on how to correct throwing form issues. However, if you want a laugh, watch me try to play soccer.
A question comes to mind - if UH throws are best for distance, why is it that no military known to me teaches the UH throw for hand grenades? Even the German Stielgranaten were thrown overhand. I did qualify "expert" in grenades while in the US Army, btw.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert wrote:
Not all ranks need to threw at once, so they did not need to open up in order to avoid hitting the man in front ........
If I have a legion under my command I am sure going to try and find a way to get as many darts in the air as I can. IF the Romans delivered pilae en masse (if), then they could do the same with the plumbatae. I haven't bought into the back-lines-feed-the-front-lines discussion. I just don't see that working when the front lines are in contact. As for cavalry attacks and the like, with an OH throw it would indeed be possible for all ranks to engage. Try that UH and you have some real problems. Not even a quincunx-style formation is adequate because the back ranks would still have a friendly 3-5 meters directly in front of them. Too early a release, a slip from sweaty hands, and boom! your buddy Flavius Targetus is now involuntarily donating his equipment to his successor...if you catch my drift. See how brave you are by standing 3 meters in front of a compatriot who is trying to throw UH for distance to get the sense of what I am saying.
And finally (for this particular post), there is only one way to be hit by a plumbata thrown UH... be at the terminus point of its trajectory. With the OH throw and a lower trajectory, anything in the line of its flight is in danger.
Thanks so much for the discussion. You may be surprised, but there are few opportunities to argue (in the academic sense) about Roman weapons and battle tactics in California.
