01-06-2019, 07:40 PM
This argument is going round in circles and I'm getting fed up with it. Let me try to make my position clear and then give up. Please bring your sword so I can give it back to you.
Your whole argument seems to have been that Americans know how to throw and Europeans don't. If I have misinterpreted it, that is how it has come over. I do not believe you understand what I have been saying at all. Europeans don't look at the plumbata in the same manner as Americans because our perspective is different. That Europeans do not know how to throw (relative to Americans) is empirically true. That is why the studies in this area are so fatally-flawed, studies which you defend by saying that 'two of them mention wind direction'. Faint praise indeed. They don't even attempt to throw as I advocate. You maintain that I am saying all sorts of things without actually showing me where I said that. I am not saying that Roman soldiers could under no circumstances have reached the same standard. That would be absurd. What I am saying is that we cannot assume it and base our analysis on that assumption. It is possible that some may have reached that standard but many, probably the majority, will not. I, therefore, prefer the middling position, neither super-competent nor wholly inadequate but somewhere in between, which conforms to the human condition. Ah yes, Romans striving to be mediocre.
You assume that the appropriate grip is at the end of the shaft behind the flights, which you apparently consider to justify your conclusion that a baseball-style of throw is the correct one. This is not unequivocally established. It is a grip adopted by researchers who felt that a javelin-style delivery did not produce a long enough range. What I want to see is how far a plumbata can be thrown javelin-style after a lengthy period of intense training. Would be good piece of data to have. After all, that is what the Romans were used to. They were also used to spear-throwing and were practiced in throwing rocks. They had no need, necessarily, to devise some exotic (lol. see shepherds/rocks statement above. I mean, where does this come from. Exotic? This just exhibits a complete lack of understanding.) and form of delivery outside their natural expertise. There appear to be indications that this could satisfy Vegetius' contention that plumbatae outranged javelins, (81 meters outranges javelins. Vegetius is appeased)).so let a concerted effort be made to see if this can be achieved. It is, frankly, all we need. Only if you have no interest in taking Roman technology to its peak capabilities, an act that is illuminative. Is there no Marcus Juenkelmann here? Ranges of great length are an indulgence. Not if you are a soldier watching the enemy in formation coming at you 100 meters away.
EDIT The addition to your post was added while I was formulating my reply. I do not dissent from any of that.
Great! That's a nice start for us to have a discussion. That discussion I shall put on hold for a while as I have some other commitments at the moment, mostly revolving guitars and football. (American football, You know, the sport where the players do their best to NOT fall down. :wink
Sorry you are fed up, Michael. I have answered all your points directly and forthrightly. I have enjoyed the exchange and I regard you highly for having the honesty to challenge me in public. By voicing your critiques and by my responding we have combined to further enhance the credibility of my work. For that I thank you.
Next!
Brucicus at the Bridge
Your whole argument seems to have been that Americans know how to throw and Europeans don't. If I have misinterpreted it, that is how it has come over. I do not believe you understand what I have been saying at all. Europeans don't look at the plumbata in the same manner as Americans because our perspective is different. That Europeans do not know how to throw (relative to Americans) is empirically true. That is why the studies in this area are so fatally-flawed, studies which you defend by saying that 'two of them mention wind direction'. Faint praise indeed. They don't even attempt to throw as I advocate. You maintain that I am saying all sorts of things without actually showing me where I said that. I am not saying that Roman soldiers could under no circumstances have reached the same standard. That would be absurd. What I am saying is that we cannot assume it and base our analysis on that assumption. It is possible that some may have reached that standard but many, probably the majority, will not. I, therefore, prefer the middling position, neither super-competent nor wholly inadequate but somewhere in between, which conforms to the human condition. Ah yes, Romans striving to be mediocre.
You assume that the appropriate grip is at the end of the shaft behind the flights, which you apparently consider to justify your conclusion that a baseball-style of throw is the correct one. This is not unequivocally established. It is a grip adopted by researchers who felt that a javelin-style delivery did not produce a long enough range. What I want to see is how far a plumbata can be thrown javelin-style after a lengthy period of intense training. Would be good piece of data to have. After all, that is what the Romans were used to. They were also used to spear-throwing and were practiced in throwing rocks. They had no need, necessarily, to devise some exotic (lol. see shepherds/rocks statement above. I mean, where does this come from. Exotic? This just exhibits a complete lack of understanding.) and form of delivery outside their natural expertise. There appear to be indications that this could satisfy Vegetius' contention that plumbatae outranged javelins, (81 meters outranges javelins. Vegetius is appeased)).so let a concerted effort be made to see if this can be achieved. It is, frankly, all we need. Only if you have no interest in taking Roman technology to its peak capabilities, an act that is illuminative. Is there no Marcus Juenkelmann here? Ranges of great length are an indulgence. Not if you are a soldier watching the enemy in formation coming at you 100 meters away.
EDIT The addition to your post was added while I was formulating my reply. I do not dissent from any of that.
Great! That's a nice start for us to have a discussion. That discussion I shall put on hold for a while as I have some other commitments at the moment, mostly revolving guitars and football. (American football, You know, the sport where the players do their best to NOT fall down. :wink
Sorry you are fed up, Michael. I have answered all your points directly and forthrightly. I have enjoyed the exchange and I regard you highly for having the honesty to challenge me in public. By voicing your critiques and by my responding we have combined to further enhance the credibility of my work. For that I thank you.
Next!
Brucicus at the Bridge
