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Plumbata
This argument is going round in circles and I'm getting fed up with it. Let me try to make my position clear and then give up.  Please bring your sword so I can give it back to you.

Your whole argument seems to have been that Americans know how to throw and Europeans don't. If I have misinterpreted it, that is how it has come over. I do not believe you understand what I have been saying at all.  Europeans don't look at the plumbata in the same manner as Americans because our perspective is different.  That Europeans do not know how to throw (relative to Americans) is empirically true.  That is why the studies in this area are so fatally-flawed, studies which you defend by saying that 'two of them mention wind direction'.    Faint praise indeed.  They don't even attempt to throw as I advocate.  You maintain that I am saying all sorts of things without actually showing me where I said that.  I am not saying that Roman soldiers could under no circumstances have reached the same standard. That would be absurd. What I am saying is that we cannot assume it and base our analysis on that assumption. It is possible that some may have reached that standard but many, probably the majority, will not. I, therefore, prefer the middling position, neither super-competent nor wholly inadequate but somewhere in between, which conforms to the human condition. Ah yes, Romans striving to be mediocre.

You assume that the appropriate grip is at the end of the shaft behind the flights, which you apparently consider to justify your conclusion that a baseball-style of throw is the correct one. This is not unequivocally established. It is a grip adopted by researchers who felt that a javelin-style delivery did not produce a long enough range. What I want to see is how far a plumbata can be thrown javelin-style after a lengthy period of intense training. Would be good piece of data to have.  After all, that is what the Romans were used to. They were also used to spear-throwing and were practiced in throwing rocks.  They had no need, necessarily, to devise some exotic (lol. see shepherds/rocks statement above.  I mean, where does this come from.  Exotic? This just exhibits a complete lack of understanding.) and form of delivery outside their natural expertise. There appear to be indications that this could satisfy Vegetius' contention that plumbatae outranged javelins, (81 meters outranges javelins.  Vegetius is appeased)).so let a concerted effort be made to see if this can be achieved. It is, frankly, all we need. Only if you have no interest in taking Roman technology to its peak capabilities, an act that is illuminative.  Is there no Marcus Juenkelmann here?  Ranges of great length are an indulgence.  Not if you are a soldier watching the enemy in formation coming at you 100 meters away.

EDIT  The addition to your post was added while I was formulating my reply. I do not dissent from any of that.
Great!  That's a nice start for us to have a discussion.  That discussion I shall put on hold for a while as I have some other commitments at the moment, mostly revolving  guitars and football.  (American football,  You know, the sport where the players do their best to NOT fall down. :winkSmile

Sorry you are fed up, Michael.  I have answered all your points directly and forthrightly.  I have enjoyed the exchange and I regard you highly for having the honesty to challenge me in public.  By voicing your critiques and by my responding we have combined to further enhance the credibility of my work.  For that I thank you.

Next!

Brucicus at the Bridge
Bruce Pruett
Assume any Latin words appearing in my posts are just guesses.
Vertrauen ist gut.  Kontrolle ist besser.
Kennen Sie den hessischen Wurstart der mit "U" anfaengt?   Huh   Uffschnitt!

The toughest steel goes through the hottest fire.
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Most of this I'm not going to bother to reply to but there is one point I will pick up on.

(01-06-2019, 07:40 PM)Brucicus Wrote:
(01-06-2019, 06:40 PM)Renatus Wrote: What I want to see is how far a plumbata can be thrown javelin-style after a lengthy period of intense training. Would be good piece of data to have.
 
You have a plumbata (of sorts) and two sons. Let's see what they come up with.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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Quote: You have a plumbata (of sorts) and two sons. Let's see what they come up with.


No thanks, Renatus. 
You can't defend your points, so you don't.  [removed by moderator] 

You focus on the absurd (that people who can't throw should be the ones testing throwing weapons.  That I claim that Americans have developed some 'exotic' new way to throw.  Indefensible rubbish.)   For God's Sake, I even posted a medical study taking men and women, English men and women who did not know how to throw, and thru the course of a month with thrice weekly after-studies practice, were able to double the distance of their throws.  You think the Romans couldn't do that and much more?

You have yet to acknowledge that those previous studies are, shall we say, to be found wanting. You accuse me of mischaracterizing the nature of my son's abilities without having any knowledge of them.  [removed by moderator]
I grossly misjudged you.
Bruce Pruett
Assume any Latin words appearing in my posts are just guesses.
Vertrauen ist gut.  Kontrolle ist besser.
Kennen Sie den hessischen Wurstart der mit "U" anfaengt?   Huh   Uffschnitt!

The toughest steel goes through the hottest fire.
Reply
I could respond to this nonsense but I won't. Robert would moderate me.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Three more plumbatae turning up on the internet. The largest (unknown origin) is fairly large and heavy (170 mm and almost 200 gr):

   

The other two (supposedly from Croatia) are of more common length (138 and 117 mm). The larger one shows perfectly how the lead was poored on the connection between the iron head and the wooden shaft:

   

Currently there are 175 published finds:

31 from Serbia
30 from Britain
16 from Slovenia
15 from Italy
15 from Austria
14 from France
10 from Hungary
9 from Croatia
7 from Germany
7 from Switzerland
5 from Georgia/Abchasia
4 from Rumania
3 from Bulgaria
3 from Greece
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
1 from Belgium
1 from Slovakia

91 from doubtful or unprovenanced origins (up from 88)
Total 267
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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Thanks for the update Robert  Wink
Regards Brennivs  Big Grin
Woe Ye The Vanquished
                     Brennvs 390 BC
When you have all this why do you envy our mud huts
                     Caratacvs
Centvrio Brennivs COH I Dacorivm (Roma Antiqvia)
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A very nice plumbata from Schaan (Liechtenstein):

   


And the usual update:
Currently there are 176 published finds:

31 from Serbia
30 from Britain
16 from Slovenia
15 from Italy
15 from Austria
14 from France
10 from Hungary
9 from Croatia
7 from Germany
7 from Switzerland
5 from Georgia/Abchasia
4 from Rumania
3 from Bulgaria
3 from Greece
2 from Liechtenstein
2 from The Netherlands
1 from Belgium
1 from Slovakia
1 from Turkey (new)

91 from doubtful or unprovenanced origins
Total 268
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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