01-20-2021, 08:22 PM
Dear friends,
As interesting as this discussing has been recently, sadly it also seemed to go into needless ad hominem arguments that have no place on this forum and which made an adult discussion about this subject next to impossible. Therefore, after consultation, the decision was taken to end mr Pruett’s engagement with this forum. Anyone who has questions about this move can contact me by PM.
That does not mean mr. Pruett’s findings are not supported here – to the contrary, most of his posts remain and I personally urge you to read his very interesting articles, as I urge you to read all the articles of all those who did some tests with throwing plumbatae – of various sizes, with various techniques, with varying results. Mr. Pruett has listed several of these in his latest article, and for completeness’ sake I’ll provide a list of all those known to me at the bottom of this post.
When reading all these publications I must stress one thing – none of these authors, myself included, has done any testing that would pass for true scientific research. Much more testers and many (MANY) more throws would be necessary for a claim like that. Therefore, none of our results can be claimed as better or even ‘the one and only possible’ result. For my sake, as admitted in my articles, I never have claimed for my results to be the only possibility, to the contrary. I had my own views about how to throw plumbatae, but as these views can be no more than a hypothesis, every other theory can be argued with as much credibility as mine. And every argument can be discussed, in a proper manner.
One thing I simply cannot agree with, is that somehow a ‘fact’ has become more important than anything else – apparently the distance reached with a plumbata is the most important aspect about this weapon, and that only those who can throw it the largest distance can be an ‘expert’, whereas everybody else is ‘wrong’.
This saddens me, because not only is it a wrong discussion, it neglects all the other aspects of the plumbata that need testing and discussion. Aspects such as:
Who threw it? The whole unit, only the front rank, the rear rankers?
When was it thrown? At the maximum distance, or to break a charge, or even after the fighting had been joined (or all of the above)?
Was it throw overarm or underarm or both? And for what specific purpose?
Was it carried in a shield for personal use or as ammunition for the throwers only?
So many questions unrelated to distance.
What I would like to know more about is the effect of a volley on a charging enemy.
Or the impact of rear-rankers throwing continuously on top an enemy already fully engaged in fighting the own front ranks. Was there any impact? What if it went wrong?
Cavalry is also connected to plumbatae finds – did they indeed use them? How were they thrown from horseback?
OK, I will not be a spoilsport – of course throwing a large distance is nice. So far we can clearly see that distances of 80 and even 90 meters are not uncommon. Overarm or underarm does not seem that much different. My favorite was always underarm, because when we started researching this from 2006 onwards, we had reports from some Spanish groups (some of their members were or still are members of Roman Army Talk) that distances of 80 and even 90 meters had been reached – underarm. None of this was published at the time, but then there must be some trust in everyone’s published results as well I think. I never managed those distances myself, but then I was (still am) inexperienced (41 back in 2007) and I owned but three different types of plumbatae. Since then, I am happy to see much more testing, including those by mr. Pruett, adding to a much-needed larger database of results. More test are no doubt planned, hopefully with more people and also including original clothing and armour.
_____________________
Finally, as promised above, a list of all publications of plumbatae tests known to me:
Drake, A. (1994): a preliminary report on the range and accuracy of the dart commonly called the plumbata or martio barbulla, unpublished.
Eagle, J. (1989): Testing plumbatae, in: van Driel-Murray 1989a, Roman Military Equipment: the Sources of Evidence. Proceedings of the Fifth Roman Military Equipment Conference, BAR Int. Ser., vol. 476 (Oxford), pp. 247-253.
Emery, J. (2010): Experimenting with Plumbatae and observations on their Behavior, thesis, University of Wisconsin-La Crosse. https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/ha...sequence=1
Griffiths, W.B. (1995): Experiments with plumbatae, in: Arbeia Journal, vol. 4, pp. 1-11.
Payne-Gallwey, Ralph (1903): Arrow-Throwing, in: The Book of the Crossbow, (New York), pp. 243-6. https://archive.org/details/TheCrossbowM.../page/n277
Pruett (2019): Testing Plumbatae.
Pruett (2021): Re-Testing Plumbatae - Setting the Record Straight...
https://www.academia.edu/44834773/_UPDAT...d_Straight
Sim, David (1995a): Experiments to examine the manufacturing techniques used to make plumbatae, in: Arbeia Journal, vol. 4, pp. 13-19.
http://minervamagazine.co.uk/archive_pdf..._23_03.pdf
Tod’s workshop (2020a): Plumbata - Roman war darts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfgMfSZiQSU
Tod’s workshop (2020b): Plumbata 2 - Bigger, Better and thrown every way!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNlgb79A4mM
Vermaat, R.M. (2007): testing Late Roman plumbatae 1 – Veerse Dam. https://www.academia.edu/30544051/Vermaa...e_Dam_2007
Vermaat, R.M. (2011): testing Late Roman plumbatae 2 - Breezand. https://www.academia.edu/30545939/Vermaa...ezand_2011
As interesting as this discussing has been recently, sadly it also seemed to go into needless ad hominem arguments that have no place on this forum and which made an adult discussion about this subject next to impossible. Therefore, after consultation, the decision was taken to end mr Pruett’s engagement with this forum. Anyone who has questions about this move can contact me by PM.
That does not mean mr. Pruett’s findings are not supported here – to the contrary, most of his posts remain and I personally urge you to read his very interesting articles, as I urge you to read all the articles of all those who did some tests with throwing plumbatae – of various sizes, with various techniques, with varying results. Mr. Pruett has listed several of these in his latest article, and for completeness’ sake I’ll provide a list of all those known to me at the bottom of this post.
When reading all these publications I must stress one thing – none of these authors, myself included, has done any testing that would pass for true scientific research. Much more testers and many (MANY) more throws would be necessary for a claim like that. Therefore, none of our results can be claimed as better or even ‘the one and only possible’ result. For my sake, as admitted in my articles, I never have claimed for my results to be the only possibility, to the contrary. I had my own views about how to throw plumbatae, but as these views can be no more than a hypothesis, every other theory can be argued with as much credibility as mine. And every argument can be discussed, in a proper manner.
One thing I simply cannot agree with, is that somehow a ‘fact’ has become more important than anything else – apparently the distance reached with a plumbata is the most important aspect about this weapon, and that only those who can throw it the largest distance can be an ‘expert’, whereas everybody else is ‘wrong’.
This saddens me, because not only is it a wrong discussion, it neglects all the other aspects of the plumbata that need testing and discussion. Aspects such as:
Who threw it? The whole unit, only the front rank, the rear rankers?
When was it thrown? At the maximum distance, or to break a charge, or even after the fighting had been joined (or all of the above)?
Was it throw overarm or underarm or both? And for what specific purpose?
Was it carried in a shield for personal use or as ammunition for the throwers only?
So many questions unrelated to distance.
What I would like to know more about is the effect of a volley on a charging enemy.
Or the impact of rear-rankers throwing continuously on top an enemy already fully engaged in fighting the own front ranks. Was there any impact? What if it went wrong?
Cavalry is also connected to plumbatae finds – did they indeed use them? How were they thrown from horseback?
OK, I will not be a spoilsport – of course throwing a large distance is nice. So far we can clearly see that distances of 80 and even 90 meters are not uncommon. Overarm or underarm does not seem that much different. My favorite was always underarm, because when we started researching this from 2006 onwards, we had reports from some Spanish groups (some of their members were or still are members of Roman Army Talk) that distances of 80 and even 90 meters had been reached – underarm. None of this was published at the time, but then there must be some trust in everyone’s published results as well I think. I never managed those distances myself, but then I was (still am) inexperienced (41 back in 2007) and I owned but three different types of plumbatae. Since then, I am happy to see much more testing, including those by mr. Pruett, adding to a much-needed larger database of results. More test are no doubt planned, hopefully with more people and also including original clothing and armour.
_____________________
Finally, as promised above, a list of all publications of plumbatae tests known to me:
Drake, A. (1994): a preliminary report on the range and accuracy of the dart commonly called the plumbata or martio barbulla, unpublished.
Eagle, J. (1989): Testing plumbatae, in: van Driel-Murray 1989a, Roman Military Equipment: the Sources of Evidence. Proceedings of the Fifth Roman Military Equipment Conference, BAR Int. Ser., vol. 476 (Oxford), pp. 247-253.
Emery, J. (2010): Experimenting with Plumbatae and observations on their Behavior, thesis, University of Wisconsin-La Crosse. https://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/ha...sequence=1
Griffiths, W.B. (1995): Experiments with plumbatae, in: Arbeia Journal, vol. 4, pp. 1-11.
Payne-Gallwey, Ralph (1903): Arrow-Throwing, in: The Book of the Crossbow, (New York), pp. 243-6. https://archive.org/details/TheCrossbowM.../page/n277
Pruett (2019): Testing Plumbatae.
Pruett (2021): Re-Testing Plumbatae - Setting the Record Straight...
https://www.academia.edu/44834773/_UPDAT...d_Straight
Sim, David (1995a): Experiments to examine the manufacturing techniques used to make plumbatae, in: Arbeia Journal, vol. 4, pp. 13-19.
http://minervamagazine.co.uk/archive_pdf..._23_03.pdf
Tod’s workshop (2020a): Plumbata - Roman war darts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfgMfSZiQSU
Tod’s workshop (2020b): Plumbata 2 - Bigger, Better and thrown every way!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNlgb79A4mM
Vermaat, R.M. (2007): testing Late Roman plumbatae 1 – Veerse Dam. https://www.academia.edu/30544051/Vermaa...e_Dam_2007
Vermaat, R.M. (2011): testing Late Roman plumbatae 2 - Breezand. https://www.academia.edu/30545939/Vermaa...ezand_2011
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
