Agrianian Peltast

[Mythos_Ruler]

Would Agrianian Peltast have utilized "Thracian"-style pelta shields, or would they have been small "Macedonian"-style round pelta? Would they have worn any body armour (quilted thorax, linothorax, etc.) or helmets? And what about footwear?

[hoplite14gr]

Thracian style shield is more probable that the macedonic shield cannotbe ruled out. Helmet iquite probable ans if they performed light infantry duty probably they would be armorless.

In late Hellenistic period they might even carry thureos oblong shield.
Kind regards

[Marcvs75]

They were Alexanders's elite light infantry (together with the Cretan archers). So i think they would look alot like the Tracians, and were javelineers. They were absolute loyal to Alexander and fought in every battle or campaign
There is an drawing on Johnny's Shunmate's portfolio of an Agrianian peltast (page 3).

[Paralus]

That's a very open question to which there is no simple answer. The Agrianes originated in the north of what was described as the "Thraceward" region. This is not to say they were armed as were the Thracians themselves for they were – as the sources indicate – very much their "own" people.

They are often described as "spearmen" or "javelin men" and they will have, in my opinion, operated as both under Alexander III and his father, Philip, before him. It all comes down to what one defines as "javelin" and "spear" as these terms are often lost in the detail. For example, at the Granicus, the Persians are suffering severely from the "lightly armed troops who had forced their way in among the cavalry". This is a description of the Agrianes acting as hamippoi. It is highly unlikely that they will have been hurling javelins in such confined space. Rather they will have been spearing “targets of opportunityâ€

[Johnny Shumate]

I don't have my copy at hand, but if I remember correctly, Arrian refers to them in one passage as the "Agrianian Javelinmen"....the Greek word akontist (spelling?) was used instead of the Greek word for spearman.. I'll check my sources on this later...
Johnny

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Akontises "ακοντιστές" are those who carry "akontia" which is something you throw,thus javelin. In pottery,thracian peltasts are show fighting with javelin,long spear,bow or sword. If the common Thracian warrior could do this,then i'm sure Agrianes were not an exception.
I also find it likely that Alexander re-equiped them,but we couldn't possibly guess in what manner. Nor do we have to assume that the Macedonian round pelte took the place of the crescent one,as its shape,apart from being traditional,must have had some fanction.After all not only the Thracians and used the crescent shaped shield,but also the Persians and other nations much more experienced in "peltastic" fighting than the Greeks and Macedonians.
Khairete
Giannis

[Paralus]

I don't have my copy at hand, but if I remember correctly, Arrian refers to them in one passage as the "Agrianian Javelinmen...

Indeed. As I said, he refers to them in both fashions. Much of that post above was written from memory (aside from Jhelhum which I checked as it is a "different" battle) and so he may refer to them in both fashions in other passages as well.

The style of fighting though is what interests me. The description of Granicus is close horse-to-horse and hand-to-hand fighting. It seems unlikely that the Agrianes were hurling too many javelins here.

Arrian does mention them doing so in the initial contact on Alexander's far right at Gaugamela. The question is, when placed in firmly in the middle of the fighting - as they are - they then become useless once their javelins are throw. I'd find it more understandable that a javelin or spear of some sort was kept so as to avoid men, stuck in the middle of a cavalry assault on other cavalry/infantry wandering 'round like a marine with an empty M16 and no bayonet.

In pottery,thracian peltasts are show fighting with javelin,long spear,bow or sword. If the common Thracian warrior could do this,then i'm sure Agrianes were not an exception.

I would agree with this. as I said above, their station in every set piece (the attacking right) would be no place to be once you'd thrown your load...so to speak....

I also find it likely that Alexander re-equiped them,but we couldn't possibly guess in what manner. Nor do we have to assume that the Macedonian round pelte took the place of the crescent one,as its shape,apart from being traditional,must have had some fanction.

No argument there. I wondered as wrote that last night whether the Paeoninas utilised the crescent shield or not. This would be the area from whence the Agrianes originated (consulting the map in my head). I do not know.

[Johnny Shumate]

Found the source:
Arrian Book I:14
...Agrianas tous akontistas...

Johnny

[Johnny Shumate]

Also, this explains their skill at long range fighting:

"..the Agrianes, who formed the rearguard, had been attacked by the hill tribes. However, their long-range fighting was too good for the enemy, who had the worst of it and withdrew."

Arrian Book III :23

[Paullus Scipio]

Hi Michael !
No doubt the fact that there are no depictions that are unequivocally of Agriainians, and no detailed desciptions in the sources either ( at least, that I know of! Anyone else?) has prompted your question. As has been remarked, the Agriaines were a Paionian tribe who lived to the north of Makedon between there and Thrace.
Paeonia was independent from Macedonia between 359-286 B.C. with its own King. The Agrianes were a Paeonian tribe, semi-independent from the Paeonians. Patraos was King of Paeonia from roughly 340 B.C-315 B.C ( Alexander's time) and issued a number of coins with the King shown mounted using an animal skin like Alexander (leopard?), wearing a crested Attic helmet, and lancing with what appears to be a longche, since it appears to be roughly 6-7 ft long an unarmoured footman in a long tunic (presumably Asiatic) armed with pelta and javelin The King has no body armour, but wears a square- necked, thigh-length belted tunic with elbow-length sleeves. One odd feature is that the tunic is shown with vertical lines, variously interpreted as stripes, quilting, or folds/pleats in a woollen tunic (c.f. another mountain people – scots highlanders – whose woollen tunics were pleated for warmth). Ordinary Paeonian cavalry appear in a plain ‘T-shirt’ tunic, apparently bareback, bare-headed with short spears/longche.
Another neighbouring mountain people, nestled between Thessaly and Macedon were the Ainianes, who unlike the Agrianes, did produce coins. These show heroically nude figures equipped as Psiloi/Peltasts, with Chlamys/short cloak draped over the left arm, a javelin in the right ready to throw, two more in the left and the Sakkos-type shield, circular convex shield. (I know of no coins showing Paionians with crescent shields)
This is sometimes interpreted as holding a petasos sun-hat, but on some good coins the shield grip is clear, and it is hard to imagine trying to fend off javelins and buzzing sling-stones with a felt hat !! The Peltasts/Psiloi also frequently have swords. One Ainanian Hero/King is Phamios and interestingly he is depicted on some coins with the usual three javelins/longche and sakkos convex round shield, while on others he is shown slinging with a long sling (pouch held in left hand at arms length runs behind head to right hand held at right-angle over elbow), but has two javelins/longche stuck in the ground behind him – very unusually “double armedâ€

[Paralus]

Yo Paul!

I figured this would draw you like the sucking pop of a Shiraz cork draws me.

I hadn't bothered to check the numismatic side - excellent work my good man! I'd though a round shield might well suit their actions under Alexander better. They didn't ever have it easy and their numbers - like the hypapspists - were remarkably constant throughout the campaign.

One hell of a crew: don't believe I'd have derisively spat "bloody peltast" at one across the fire!

You've PMs to get to man....

[Paullus Scipio]

Yup !.....moth to a flame ... :wink: :wink:
I'll get to your communications in a while......just a tad busy..... (

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This may not be the exact best thread to post this,but it's the most current discussion involving peltae. So here's a reconstruction of the Pharnakes shield.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3033/252 ... 80b4_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2327/213 ... 2265_o.jpg
Owned by a Spanish re-enactor. Don't know who makes the shields. They must have an excellent armourer...
Khairete
Giannis

[Mythos_Ruler]

Excellent! I like it! Thanks for the links!

[Kineas]

If you turn to page 152 of the Art Catalogue from "In Search of Alexander" (National Gallery of Art, Washington, DC, 1980) you'll find some very interesting, and, I think, revealing, shield decorations. they're done in terra cotta and have brushed on color, indicating that they were rose and gold (or possibly purple and gold) and can be associated with guards units (check out the Alexander Helios decoration)

I know we don't "know" anything, but the elongated shields match both the descriptions of Iphacrates so-called reforms (forget the reforms, he did re-create the idea of the Peltast) and the associated shield.

I find the Iphacratian shield interesting because, with minor mods, it's the Celtic La Tene shield and the Roman Republican shield--an important design. Which makes it all the more likely that some of Alexander's best carried it. Agrianians? Who knows....

Interestingly, the pointed gallic" shields (with thunderbolts and Alexander's head, or 26 other decorations) are associated with similar shields but of "argive" design, complete with deep dish and rim. They're from the "Erotes" toomb (3rd c. BC) and were probably funerary decorations.


Okay, I don't have the right to cut and paste them here, but the items are 97.323 (argive) 97.327 (argive) 97.334 (pelte) and 97.345 (pelte). Go to the Museum of fine arts boston website and search by cat number and the images are clear and include the original color--wow.

If I was painting Agrianians to play, or doing a unit as a reenactor, that would be my shield...www.mfa.org/index.asp