Del Tin Swords

[Kineas]

I'm modestly familiar with the known artifacts of Classical swords--a pretty narrow range...
I've read some arguments about the Spanish-Greek vs. Greek to Spanish transfer of the falcata...
Now, I've seen a good deal of (very helpful) talk on this forum about kit, and about Deepeeka and Windlass Greek swords, bit no one ever mentions Del Tin in Italy. They have a sterling reputation (at least with me!) and they make a very nice looking falcata and an "Early Republican Roman Gladius" that appears to me to be very, very similar to some of the Classical blades. Admittedly it has a one piece bronze hilt, but is that wrong? Do we know enough in this instance to say?
I'm a little concerned at equipping a unit with swords (the Deepeeka ones) that are all replicas of one original--and a fairly unique original--that's Italian (Campovalano). A couple are fine. I'm looking for some variation.
On the other hand, the list's silence suggests that perhaps I'm way off base. All help greatfully appreciated.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hi Kineas. The campovalano was not the only one found in in this shape and this hilt construction. I can remember of at least three more found in Italy. I have to say that incorrectly the italian swords are thought to have been identical to the greek ones,but this is only partly true. The relationship was something lke the one between greek and italian chalkidean and attic helmets. Most of the swords i have seen here in greece have a solid iron guard and either a solid iron or iron plated wood or bone grip. The pommel could have been either solid iron or plated wood/bone or wood/bone with iron or gold decoration. I have never seen bronze,especially cast,in greek swords of this era. I don't know where this deepeeka reproduction comes from. Connolly has painted one or two bronze hilts though...
I think you're in a rush,Kineas. You have three years ahead.Why don't you point to some reconstruction or modifiction? After all,your group consists of re-enactors,they must know of this way of building a kit better than me!
I ruined a LOTR "Sting" sword to make a xiphos. The blade has a perfect shape! And the size is identical to some ancient swords i've seen.I think the blade is about 42 cm long.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 2507-1.jpg
There are some other swords out there,perhaps also by deepeeka,which are based on the campovalano sword and with midifications may look better.
Khaire
Giannis

PS. i remember of two bronze hilts from kopis that re now in Ioannina and Dodona museum. But the blades are missing and I suspect both come from statues...

[hoplite14gr]

Bronze kopis-flcata hilts appeared in photos of the Dodona and Olympia Museum Guides printed in 1960. There was a bronze duck-shaped hilt from the Nat. Museum Athens but I couldn't located 15 days ago.
So a bronze hilt is not ahistorical in my opinion.

Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Perhaps it is not. But the find come from kopis and the truth is i have seen none any time with my eyes. So,the deepeeka sword is bronze hilted but at least has a good shape. The blade could be worked in a somewhat nicer shape,but it must be too thick to do so very easily. I don't know.
Khaire
Giannis

Stefane,PM sent

[Virilis]

Hi all!

I have a Del Tin kopis. It has a solid bronze handle which is not historically accurate as far as I know. The handle is so heavy that it eliminates the kopis as a slashing weapon which it must have originally been. On the other hand it is a very beautiful object and perfect for a decorative item :wink: !

[Kineas]

You guys are very helpful and I appreciate your comments. I tried to post the Del Tin pics and couldn't.

They can be found (kopis) at [url:ya0dts0g]http://www.deltin.net/202a.htm[/url]

and (gladius, but early and very like some Greek swords on vase paintings, both in hilt shape and blade shape) at [url:ya0dts0g]http://www.deltin.net/203a.htm[/url]

Giannis, I am, in a way, in a hurry. I'd like to raise a hundred hoplites. If I'm lucky, I'll get 25-30. At that scale, I cannot expect every man to make his own kit--or rather, I'll want to focus what folks make--especially as we'll be camping first and fighting second. Del Tin makes an excellent product--swords that can be used, even when splitting kindling... and I'll bet that they were used as foraging tools, too!

Anyway, back to searching the web. The world needs more sword smiths.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

OK.The kopis is widely used by re-enactors and though maybe a bit heavy,it looks a nice piece. The roman sword also seems good in blade shape. I would perhaps make it a little narrower,but such wide swords have been found. The hilt though NEEDS to be changed. And don't forget something very important: Scabards. No accurate scabards out there. So you'll need to make hilts and scabards. If roman scabards are easier to find,then you could buy some cheap ones and take only the wooden core and maybe the leather covering,and change guard and chape.
Bringing 25-30 hoplites or peltasts or anything will be great. But i fear the fact that those people don't seem to have any experience in greek re-enacting,do they? You'll in any way have to check them closely in every bit :?
Khaire
Giannis

[Matthew Amt]

and (gladius, but early and very like some Greek swords on vase paintings, both in hilt shape and blade shape) at [url:21m0dboq]http://www.deltin.net/203a.htm[/url]

Ah, that one. It's actually a Spanish Fronton style sword, dating back to the 4th or 5th century BC. They basically copied it from illustrations in Connolly, who wrote his book back when this was thought to be the Gladius Hispaniensis, the predecessor to the Mainz style gladius. But it is not! It had fallen out of use long before the Romans got to Spain, and is not really as similar to the Mainz as a few tiny pictures might suggest.

They've changed this repro in the last couple years. The hilt looks marginally better, but the blade shape has "melted down" to something unrecognizable. If it can be reworked into a usable hoplite sword, great, but it doesn't really look like a Spanish Fronton, nor like anything Roman! (Actually, you might be able to use the blade for something very early Republican Roman, but yes, with a completely different hilt.) Probably easier just to modify something that is already meant to be a hoplite sword, though!

Valete,

Matthew