Cleopatra question

[Historylover]

This question of my arose after reading some responses on my thread asking about the HBO series Rome.

My thoughts were this, is it possible that the portrayal of her being a Succubus Oriental women, thus showing how the people of the East were could have been started by supporters of Antony after his defeat?

After his suicide and defeat certainly it would have made sense to blame his failures not on him but someone that was with him and she made the perfect scapegoat? From that you could argue that everything was her fault from the failures of the army to 'making' him commit suicide? By blaming it on outside influence they have saved Antony from egg on his face and then also given a stereotype of inferiority or selfishness of Easterners.

Just a thought. All the best, Jonathan

[Jona Lendering]

is it possible that the portrayal of her being a Succubus Oriental women, thus showing how the people of the East were could have been started by supporters of Antony after his defeat?

That's what many historians would agree with. The idea can already be found in Virgil. Also note the structure of Appian's Roman History: the war between Octavian and Marc Antony is presented as a war between Rome and Egypt, Cleopatra being presented as the main adversary, and her lover as a puppet of an oriental mistress.

It is strange to see that this image of men becoming senseless, willless puppets once a woman gets involved was common in both Antiquity and the modern Near East, where women are forced to protect themselves against men's gazing eyes. I wonder why western Europe developped other ideas about self-constraint.

[john m roberts]

In the Imperial era they could not blacken Antonius's reputation too much, because he remained in the Julio-Claudian family. The heroic Germanicus and his brother the emperor Claudius were his grandsons. Better to lay all the blame on Cleopatra. Besides, this totally delegitimized Caesarion.

[Narukami]

Also, Octavian could not claim a "triumphal victory" over brother Romans so the war with Antony had to be cast as a war against Egypt and Egyptians with Antony portrayed as favoring his children by Cleopatra over those with Octavian's sister. Thus would Antony cease to be a true Roman but rather a corrupt Egyptian.

Perhaps some of this is true, but as history is written by the victors, what we know from the written sources favors Octavian.

:wink:

Narukami

[Wander]

Politically, it makes all kinds of sense for Octavian to make it a war on Egypt and Cleopatra. Not only does it allow such niceties as a potential triumph, but it diminishes Antonius' stature while still avoiding the mess of making war against fellow Romans. (After the Pompey/Caesar messes, I'm sure plenty of Romans were heartily sick of that.)

I recently watched a documentary I'd recorded about "The Mysterious Death of Cleopatra" (or some such sensationalistic title). They approached it with a CSI style, including plenty of needless sensationalism, but basically concluded that suicide was unlikely and blamed Octavian for having her killed instead -- then said the asp story was a coverup. The primary idea was that cobra venom is far too slow, usually several hours, between the bite and death. They discussed hemlock as an alternate poison, and decided it was also too slow. (They ignored the possibility of any other poisons, but I have no doubt Cleo would have had both knowledge of and access to them.)

The "psychological profile" they put together said that Cleopatra was "a survivor" type, and not likely to commit suicide. They completely ignored the cultural context, including, A) she was likely to be ritually killed anyway after a triumph by Octavian, and B) she was a personification of the goddess Isis, and therefore had nothing to fear in death.

The profiler also cleverly figured out that Octavian was capable of murder -- how's that for a news flash?

While I don't discount the possibility, or even probability, that Octavian did indeed have her killed (and then promulgate the asp story), I think it's also quite possible that she did commit suicide, probably with some other poison not discussed in the show.

The show raised a few interesting points, but on the whole was so flawed that it was impossible to take it seriously.

[praetor0708]

There are historians who believe that the story of Cleopatra VII taking her own life using an asp was made up by Octavian so that Egyptians would not scorn him for killing their last true monarch. Rome was very dependent of Egypt for grain as well as other imports such as linen, perfume, make up, and many other goods. Octavian knew that if Rome was cut off from trade with Egypt it would collapse into chaos as people would begin starving within months. In this scenario, Octavian paints an image of wanting to help Cleopatra, but rather than accept his help, she commits suicide and leaves Egyptians to their own devices. Octavian was a master political strategist, like his famous great-uncle. In all likeliness, Octavian probably put Cleopatra and her children to death as they were clear threats to his regime. Remember that history is written by the side that wins. As for Mark Antony, I don't buy the image portrayed in the Rome series as a sex addict playboy with no conscience. On the contrary, Mark Antony was a soldier and devout patriot of Rome. I believe he succumbed to the charms of Cleopatra to get away from the forced marriage to Octavia which he accepted reluctantly to please Octavian. This is what we now call "jungle fever" and Mark Antony caught it bad. The failure at Actium was simply that Antony had little experience fighting a naval battle and put his fleet too close together which allowed Agrippa to use fire to burn the Egyptian fleet to cinders as fire spread from one ship to the next. Octavian's version of history is being questioned, but there is little or no evidence to prove that things happened otherwise. But still I wonder.

[john m roberts]

Octavian didn't kill all of Cleopatra's children, only Caesarion, who was his rival for the legacy of Caesar. Her son and daughter by Antonius were raised in the Julio-Claudian family.