Late Roman swords usage

[Caballo]

Most Late Roman reenactors carry a spatha.

Looking at the various depiction from the time, it struck me how few were wearing an identifiable sword.

Could it be that with the increasing economic shortages of the 4th and 5th centuries that swords (as a very expensive article of kit) became more and more a treasured possession, worn more by the elite than the average soldiers?

For example, Theodosius' missorium. Where are the scabbards?



Or on Honorius. The soldier has no sword. The Emperor does.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _Kerch.jpg

[Theodosius the Great]

It does seem odd that 4th century art doesn't depict scabbards as often as before but I'm dubious about reading anything into it. One 4th century depiction of a Gallic limitanei stationed on the Upper Rhine shows him with a scabbard. You can see it on Vortigern's excellent website : http://www.fectio.org.uk/artarticlesgroot.jpg

Based on this one piece of evidence I don't subscribe to the theory that swords became scarce leaving only infantry spearmen. Gaul was the most turbulent western province in the late fourth century A.D. yet even the limitanei based there retained their swords or at least some did.

Furthermore, Vegetius advocates training recruits "to strike not with the edge but with the point" of their gladii. This suggests to me that recruits are already issued swords in the first place from one of the 35 state-run factories listed in the Notitia Dignitatum. Soldiers were not yet purchasing their own equipment, AFAIK. That became practice by the sixth century.

~Theo

[Caballo]

Not sure its just one piece of evidence. For example, Valentinian below. Again, where are the scabbards?
Earlier art certainly depicted them (as in the link above).


And Vegetius was looking back to the glory days of the Empire...

By 6-8th centuries, the sword was an object or rarity and almost magical powers. In 1-3rd C AD, every Roman miles had one. I just wonder if the process where the sword went from commonplace to a rare item began in the late 4th century as trade became more difficult and the economy foundered? Certainly other items, such as pottery , roof tiles etc weren't as widespread.

Cheers

Caballo

[Theodosius the Great]

Sorry, I just added to my original post.

AFAIK, soldiers from the 4th and 5th centuries did not purchase their own weapons and armor. The Notitia Dignitatum, written circa 400 A.D., lists 35 state factories across the Empire which was where the weapons were produced and issued at state expense - not the soldiers'.

And Vegetius was looking back to the glory days of the Empire...

True, yet he's also advocating reintroducing the old training techniques. To advocate a technique for a weapon that isn't in wide use seems odd to me, so I believe swords were still being issued by the state to common soldiers.

You may be right that swords became more rare but I'd like to hear / read about more evidence from the 4th/5th centuries A.D.. It's a very interesting question.

For example, Valentinian below. Again, where are the scabbards?

Isn't that a scabbard at Valentian's feet ?

I agree with you that scabbards are not depicted as often but I wouldn't use your examples since they both depict the emperor's entourage which is hardly representative of the regular troops. And I've seen many contemporary mosaics and frescoes with soldiers but none show scabbards. The strongest artistic evidence to answer your question, IMO, would come from tombstones like the one I linked to in my first post.

~Theo

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, if those guys would lower their shields, we might get a good look.....
might be my imagination but seems there is a baldric on a couple of these guys in the last one you posted Caballo,..

[Robert Vermaat]

I'm with Jaime on this. Of course the sword became more expensive, relatively speaking, and we certainly know from later times in the Germanic kingdoms that swords were no longer a common sidearm, but became a treasure posession. But indeed, the Roman state equipped all soldiers and even though the quality might vary there are signs enough, as Jaime has already shown, to assume that swords remained standard issue. I blame the artist for the examples where scabbards are invisible.

besides, we are looking at the Emperor's guardsmen here! Theodosius, Constantius II, Valentinian (II or III)... If even their guards do not show a sword, who cán we assume still carried a sword!

Or on Honorius. The soldier has no sword. The Emperor does.

Erm, that's Constantius II, not Honorius.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Can we asume that the tradition of gaurds around the Emperor did not have there weapons on show as in early period and this continued on :?: . Swords I would say were still a mass issue for troops 4-5th AD, only after the collapse in the west that the swords would have been a problem to obtain. The infrastructure was not there to produce weapons then the age of the Blacksmith came to the forfront and the ceromony of sword given began. One question I have is even just before the collapse what happened to all the swords in service :?: considering they was 10zz of thousands of them :? D
Regards Brennivs

[Theodosius the Great]

Caballo,

According to AHM Jones, out of the 20 arms factories (fabricae) in the Western Empire two were specialized in sword making - the ones at Luca and Remi (Italy and Gaul, respectively).

Others focused on shields, lances, arrows, ballistae, or armor. The factories of the Eastern Empire were not as specialized.

~Theo

[Crispvs]

The Gamzigrad tombstone also shows an infantryman wearing an intercissa type helmet and carrying a shield and spear but no sword.

Crispvs

[Bran ap Maclou]

Hi,

For Letavia, we discussed this point, wondering if the classical spatha wasn't replaced for last romans by irish swords like scians or barbarian tool-weapons like scramasaxes or axes.

Well we did not successed to conclude about that, the spatha representations become rare but the scuti hide most of the bodies of these men though some alternative weapons supposedly more mundane for their time are no more represented than spathae generally speaking. So I would suspect an artistic convention in order to clearly identify the emperor perhaps.

So we decided for reenacting purposes to let the priority of a spatha to our officer and to all begin with a spear and scutum. However for trainings, if you let the choice to the guys, most of them take the wooden spatha instead of the blunt spear. So, anyways, for reenactors, the symbol of the sword hanging on the side is stronger than historical (or artistic) statistic shares.

Bye

Greg

[Robert Vermaat]

The Gamzigrad tombstone also shows an infantryman wearing an intercissa type helmet and carrying a shield and spear but no sword.

True, nor can one be seen on the Aquileia soldier, the Aspar disk, the tombstone of Flavius Augustalis and the Via Maria fresco.
But on the other hand the Via Latina fresco and the tombstone from Linz very much show a spatha.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The Gamzigrad tombstone also shows an infantryman wearing an intercissa type helmet and carrying a shield and spear but no sword.

True, nor can one be seen on the Aquileia soldier, the Aspar disk, the tombstone of Flavius Augustalis and the Via Maria fresco.
But on the other hand the Via Latina fresco and the tombstone from Linz very much show a spatha.

Where is this fresco Robert? In which museum can it be seen?

[Caballo]

"True, nor can one be seen on the Aquileia soldier, the Aspar disk, the tombstone of Flavius Augustalis and the Via Maria fresco.
But on the other hand the Via Latina fresco and the tombstone from Linz very much show a spatha."

Thanks- lots of useful sources. Btw, I'm not proposing that no swords were worn- simply that less are shown (compared to 1st century when virtually everyone has a sword) - which could mean that less were worn/ available. Certainly, its one ofthe most expensive articles of kit and therefore MAY have been the first to be dropped.

What is the position on the manuscripts- I don't have a copy of the Vergilius Romanus for example?

And I agree that the shields may hide some swords as well- all interesting examples.

Regards

Paul

[Caballo]

So, thanks to this excellent site http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artlit/vergilius.htm , some pictures from the Vergilius Romanus- dated to 4th/ 5th century- possibly even from Britain.

And- bar one hilt that could be a dagger or a sword- not a sword in sight.

[Caballo]

This great storm picture...feels very English Channel like...