"National Roman Legion"

[P. Clodius Secundus]

If someone wants to try to form a "National Legion" good luck, and let us know how that works out for you . Organizing reenactors has been compared to herding cats. We'll be just fine up here in Nova Brittania, thanks all the same. When we go south to another Province and join up with other local groups they've been gracious enough to invite us to bring all our Standard, Vex, and Horn Section. In return we've been glad to fall in for drill or demos under any banner or Leaders and in any color tunic the organizers want. The Officers are usuallly determined by how many troops each legion fields at the event. If it's the incompatibility of shield types and patterns that bothers you, concentrate on buying a small trailer and a bunch of scuta to loan out to everyone when and if we can all get together.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Well, I'll throw in my 2 cents' worth on this, by stating that like almost everything else I believe about this hobby, I line up squarely with Matt Amt.

The idea of a "single, large legion" or formation for "big events" sounds good, but I think we are all thinking about events that rarely exist, at least here in the good ol' US of A.

As the leader of Legio XI in Atlanta, Georgia, our group and its members conduct 90% of our participation at LOCAL events. LOCAL museums arrange for us to be present at openings; we visit LOCAL schools at least once-a-month during the school year; etc.

When we do conduct a "multi-legion" event, again, 90% of the time it's with our brothers from Legio VI FFC, headed by my great friend Rusty Myers. For these, Rusty and I invariably argue over "who has to be centurio," since both of us would rather be a ranker. What we normally do is if I am the "host" legion, Rusty is the "commander of troops" and vice-versa.

About ONE time a year, usually Lafe, our guys are able to go to an event that features more than Legio XI/Legio VI. Once. So, this thread seems to be discussing a situation in which we need to re-arrange what we've already done so that one time a year we can all be part of a "national," uniform legion. OK, run that by me one more time? :roll:

So, back to what I do 90% of the time. When we conduct events and or/school visits, the idea is to educate the "public" about the Roman Army. The Roman Army had more than legionaries from one legion in it, and it was in existence for more than one century.

A school visit is normally 2 guys, and sometimes I'll go as a legionary ca. 43 A.D., sometimes as a 1st Century A.D. auxiliary, sometimes as a centurio, sometimes a legionary from another part of the 1st Century, depending on the audience and the age. See, I like variety and since the hobby is supposed to be a hobby -- and therefore fun for me -- then I like to vary what I wear when I go out and play dress-up.

When we do a museum gig, I'll have 8-10 guys. I'll usually be there as a centurio, we'll (soon) have a signifer with a signum, some legionaries in a variety of kits, and 2-3 auxiliaries doing COH I BAT impressions. For the public, this gives them more of an overall impression of what the Roman Army was like, and gives us many, many more opportunities to discuss a myriad of aspects of that Army.

Finally, once a guy builds a legionary impression, many of our folks want to do something else. I have a couple of guys who don't want to be legionaries at all -- they want to be auxiliaries (one is even doing an aux cav as well as an aux infantry). I am personally working on a Caesarian-era Republican legionary. One of my guys has a legionary impression and working on a signifer impression. Am I going to tell them no? Of course not. This hobby is about having fun, not conforming to one particular person's vision of the Roman Army, since I doubt that any one person's vision would be truly definitive, anyway.

If we wanted to have anything "national," however, then my vote would be for a set of accuracy standards as well as a set of drill commands in latin. My vote for this would therefore be those of Legio XX, since Matt Amt's site is where everyone goes, anyway. How many times do we see a newbie on RAT ask "How do you..." and someone sends him to the Legio XX site? Gads, it's impossible to count.

So, while the whole "national legion" idea kind of mildly interests me, it does so more from a standards/accuracy standpoint as opposed to an "every 8 men is a contubernium with x, y, z" standpoint. Great for that one time a year we do Lafe, but pretty useless for me the other 15 or so events I do in the course of a year, and a dis-service to the local audience I serve.

Regards,

Edge

[Vitruvius]

Ave to All,
This "thread" is quite interesting to me for a number of reasons: a.) I feel that a large number of members get rather unpleasant when arguing various points. B.) A national "legion" looks good, but might not fly due to various era groups. C.) I agree that Matt Amt's website is the greatest thing since pre-sliced bread!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: Finally, I'm working on a Hadrianic era impression as are a few of my friends. Where would any "group" we form fit in? Arik Greenberg's group comes to mind here.
Let's try to get along because sooner or later this argument is going to spill over into public areas and give Roman re-enacting a bad name...much as it has with the S.C.A. which is one of the reasons I left IT.
Salve,
Larry A. Mager a.k.a. Vitruvius

[texascavtrooper]

I am really suprised at how people want to pick apart an idea when it's not one they came up with. I think it's just unsportsman like to take pop shot's at someone who has done so much for the hobby. It also makes me step back and ask myself if I really want to become part of all of this. I have been reenacting for almost twenty years. I have done Rev-war, CW, Old West, WW1,WW2 and The Nam. I have a small group of friends that have wanted to do Roman for awhile. I am in the Army deployed to Iraq. I just bought a complete kit from Soul of the Warior. I am begining to wonder if this was a mistake. I think this Idea of a large group is one that should be given some thought before you just dismiss it. There is so much talk about other people on here that I am wondering if this forum is to talk about Roman Army or how we can run down others. If you don't like someones idea fine, but do you need to run down that person? All I am saying is nobody is tring to take your legio away, just tring to bring us all together so we can do this hobby that we ALL have choose to do. If that means letting some guy be in charge so what. That just leaves more time that you have to chase the ladies. Ok I am getting down of my soap box.
The small group that my friends and I are starting is in Texas and after looking at the historys of a few Legios we are going to do the 14th. We chose that legio before we knew of the National Legion. I wish all of you well and good luck with the dream.
Bryan Fitch
SGT US Army

[Hibernicus]

Bryan, Many of us who have criticized the idea of a "national legion" have interacted with Dan Peterson for several years. I have done so by phone, email and in person. We have exchanged ideas, commiserated, argued, disagreed, agreed, worked together in some things.... I think many others can say the same.

There is a difference between a large group and a national legion. Several US clubs recruit members across state lines including us, Legio IX Hispana, all with the intent of creating large clubs. The idea is not new and its not Dan's.

You're an experienced reenactor. What you will learn about Roman is that it is very different from later time periods in that we do not know many many things, that what we know is often opinion or perhaps interpretation and not hard fact. We might argue about tunica color from time to time because there is no hard evidence. Some postulate that we should only decorate our shields with a specific Legio's device because its the only one we know of with certainty and that since ALL other shield emblems are made up fantasy creations of the particular clubs they should logically be discarded.

The idea of a national legion has merit, but in my opinion not enough to warrant a 2nd set (partial or complete) of gear.

Also, many of us disagree about reenactment standards. Dan's national legion allows luan shields, Legio IX Hispana forbids them in favor of a more historic construction method. We also disagree about scutum size and shape. And that's all OK because so much of what we do as Roman reenactors is opinion and interpretation.

You know.. :wink: ... Legio IX has guys scattered all over Texas and they're in need of solid leadership.

[Magnus]

Ave to All,
I'm working on a Hadrianic era impression as are a few of my friends. Where would any "group" we form fit in? Arik Greenberg's group comes to mind here.
Let's try to get along because sooner or later this argument is going to spill over into public areas and give Roman re-enacting a bad name...much as it has with the S.C.A. which is one of the reasons I left IT.
Salve,
Larry A. Mager a.k.a. Vitruvius

It'd be tough for your era Larry since most are mid-1st century...I do Trajanic...105 AD and early 1st century events are a no-go for me. But usually it doesn't matter...you may stand out at an event but usually the host legion is pretty good about things like that.

Also, you can't avoid the politics, and it's already spilled over into real life in some cases here on RAT...but that's just how it goes sometimes. 8)

I am really suprised at ...
The small group that my friends and I are starting is in Texas and after looking at the historys of a few Legios we are going to do the 14th. We chose that legio before we knew of the National Legion. I wish all of you well and good luck with the dream.
Bryan Fitch
SGT US Army

Hey Bryan, as Sean/Hib posted, most of us have known Dan for years, via RAT or met him at events. I had the pleasure of doing so this year at AD 43 in Lafe, Arkansas. The bottom line is that if you're willing to put forth an idea and make it public, you're going to face criticism, both personally and against your idea. That's unfortunately normal...but as a person you have to expect it because not everyone is going to agree with it. And it's a fine line to keep distinguished, when someone's idea technically is a part of them...so sometimes it's hard not to comment on the person as well. Especially if they believe in that idea...it's basically an extension of them right?

However, because Roman reenacting IS such a smaller time period, especially in N. America, there's going to be a pile of talk about other people...it can't be avoided. Think of it as a small town...I have friends with the same amount of reenacting experience as you, in various periods as well, and from what they tell me this period is really no different in terms of politics than any other. The era portrayed may change, but people don't.

I can see how someone knew might see that as a negative, but really it's just the nature of people. Don't let it discourage you, for every one person you may read/see/hear about in a negative light, there's about 50 really, really good ones. Trust me on that. There are people on this forum who'd literally give you the armour off their back if you ran into some trouble and needed it...stick around and you'll see what I mean.

Good luck with your group and come home safe!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

basically, it 's a bit like housewifes over the back fence, most of the time... :roll: lol: Runs

[Hibernicus]

Al in all, the idea of a national legion is in and of itself a fair idea, but perhaps it should be "neutral".....

So, how about this:
- A North American Legion
- A unique scutum device that belongs to THAT organization
- No number
- Each participant can add his Legio's name and number to the tabula on the North American Legion shield.
- organize NAL contuberniums around existing clubs by era they portray
-- each club uses its preferred shield shape and size
- set up a rank structure similar to what Leg IX uses
-- "X" number of men in a chapter earns that chapter a Decanus, "X" number an Optio, "X" number a Centurio etc. ie: earn rank within the NAL
-- and that means Dan has to compete with the rest of us to earn that cresta.
- use a basic relatively common Latin command set
-- march, stop, face left/right, form up, dismisssed, throw pila... maybe a few more
- establish 501c3 status (duh!)
- set up an elected BOD (the SCA has a very successful example)

[Caius Fabius]

You can be a member of more than one group. duh. You could be a part of the National Legion, LEG XX, LEG IX, LEG II and Cohort II ITAL and no one will give a flip. Get some different color tunics for groups that use white, red, blue... Put a kit together that is generic and most groups will approve, and get a couple of different shields IF required. Stop spending so much time cutting down other people's ideas and raining on different parades and look at getting happy with what you are doing? If you don't want to be in LEG XX or LEG XI or LEG II or LEG XIIII no one will force you. If you don't want to read someone's webpage, or it offends you, ... my brouser is not in control of my internet, I click the mouse. :roll:

I did hear that LEG VI will press=gang you but that is a rumor... :lol:

[Magnus]

I think everyone should just join my legion. I'll induct you all as honorary Canadians by making you go swimming in a pool filled with beer, and eat peameal bacon with maple syrup in an igloo.

[Titus Petronicus Graccus]

I think everyone should just join my legion. I'll induct you all as honorary Canadians by making you go swimming in a pool filled with beer, and eat peameal bacon with maple syrup in an igloo.

Dude! You were NOT supposed to tell everyone the ultra-secret initiation ceremony!
Now we have to come up with a whole new one!
:lol:

[arklore70]

think everyone should just join my legion. I'll induct you all as honorary Canadians by making you go swimming in a pool filled with beer, and eat peameal bacon with maple syrup in an igloo.

Matt,
that is a heck of a tempting offer, especially if the beer and bacon is anything close to what was shared at Lafe

v/r
Mike

[P. Clodius Secundus]

Matt, wouldn't we all have to learn Gallic and call ourselves Kilos Gregarii?

[Magnus]

No, but I could make you learn Quebecois french instead! :lol:

Mike...I had the pleasure of dining on that fine bacon again at Fort Meigs near Toledo, Ohio. The II AVG guys from Canada always bring some of it...double smoked.

It honestly makes the event lol.

[scythius]

I think everyone should just join my legion. I'll induct you all as honorary Canadians by making you go swimming in a pool filled with beer, and eat peameal bacon with maple syrup in an igloo.

Throw in unlimited poutine, beer and some cutely accented lovely young ladies, and we might talk... :lol: :lol: