Aachener Erklärung

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

super-carriers of "civil courage"

Now thats a sound bite the politicians will be fighting over..... lol:

[Redwald]

Well, what a storm has blown up about this!
I am a member of Ulfhednar - albeit an English one. I am proud to have Arian Ziliox as a friend. I am proud to know the other members of Ulfhednar, whether they be German, Polish, or English. None of the ones that I have met are nazis or neo-nazis. All of them have a genuine interest in the accurate portrayal of history, as far as the sources allow. Many have expended a great deal of time, effort and money on building a convincing portrayal. There has to be some interpretation because the sources do not cover everything - hence the flag --not consciously based on an SS flag, as some have suggested. As for the colour combination, Ulfhednar have many other designs on shields and other paraphernalia, as a look at our website will show. Incidentally, some other groups use similar designs of flag. There is some evidence that flags were hung from spears -- little textile evidence, though so colours cannot be determind. The swastika was a symbol used by the ancient peoples of Europe, including the Romans. In the Germanic context, it seems to be linked to the thunder god and can be found on literally thousands of finds, from pots, to belt buckles, brooches and pendants, from England and Scandinavia, to Germany, France, Italy and Poland. It would be naiive to think that this easily reproduced design wasn't used on clothing -- but of this there is little evidence.
It is true that sensitivities in Germany are a great deal more delicate than in England, for example, where this symbol has never been banned. Ulfhednar has learned lessons from this experience and the group is still as serious as ever about its purpose, that is to research and portray particular periods of European history.


Paul

[Cassius Tullius]

If I understand you correctly, it is a mandate for moral relativism.

You don´t.

This is about state institutions paying for Living History. They pay for reenactors to present Living History, not for you proselytizing your chosen religion, your political philosophy and what not. I don´t see any socialists or socialist theories popping up in this discussion so far, so I wonder where you found them, Angus?
If you go to a private event, or an event sponsored by a private institution, you can do whatever you want as long as the organizer is d´accord with it and no laws are violated. This here is, again, about official events, payed for by the tax payers in the end. It is necessary that such events are professional and don´t interfere with laws, as they are, just like schools, a teaching institution.

I have been told by relatives in Germany that Priests and Ministers are salaried by the State. So your government is paying for religious people to present religion. An official event? Paid for by taxpayers in the end? I'm sure such events are professional and don't interfere with laws. :wink:

I din't believe I was grandstanding or proselytizing.

[Carlton Bach]

I have been told by relatives in Germany that Priests and Ministers are salaried by the State. So your government is paying for religious people to present religion. An official event? Paid for by taxpayers in the end? I'm sure such events are professional and don't interfere with laws. :wink:

I regret to say you were misinformed.

[caiusbeerquitius]

I have been told by relatives in Germany that Priests and Ministers are salaried by the State.

Misinformed indeed. This is gross nonsense.

I din't believe I was grandstanding or proselytizing.

The "you" in my text was not referring exactly to you as an individual, it should be understood as "one". Like in "One does not eat one´s neighbour!"

[caiusbeerquitius]

not consciously based on an SS flag, as some have suggested

Well, that´s again one of those things. If I want to avoid trouble, I keep myself informed and avoid such parallels...
[url:1f3yl4vs]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truppenfahne_(Waffen-SS)[/url]
[url:1f3yl4vs]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truppenfahne_%28Wehrmacht%29[/url]

Incidentally, some other groups use similar designs of flag.

That´s interesting. Can you name those groups?
Apart from that: Does the use of similar flags used by other groups make the use of such a flag by U. any better?

In the Germanic context, it seems to be linked to the thunder god and can be found on literally thousands of finds, from pots, to belt buckles, brooches and pendants, from England and Scandinavia, to Germany, France, Italy and Poland.

This is right, but it is by far not so predominant a symbol as the U. gear apparently wants people to believe, where it serves as an almost exclusive pattern for everything. If you look at other reenacmwnt groups portraying the same period(s) you see a lot less swastikas. I wonder why.

Maybe you can shed some light on these things, so that U. can perhaps be exculpated from this or that accusation that is spread in the Internet - the German part of the group is quite silent about all this.

[Susanna]

The "Aachener Erklärung" is no "Schnellschuss"!
So the Paderborn discussion also was none.

Because it depends on the results such things have.
Paderborn at least got people sensible for the theme and
ready to do something and hear a lot of different oppinions.

The "Aachener Erklärung" seems recently to get a lot of
people together, that already have signed it, that normally
would not get into contact or rather working together.
Might be because they simply do not know each other,
might be they do not like each other.

And that is soooo great!

@Paul: What I miss is a "letter to public" on your homepage f.e.
there you might explain your point of view.
And a "sorry" (not only a written one!) for what happened with the tatoo would be very helpful,
at least for the people who felt offended.

[caiusbeerquitius]

The "Aachener Erklärung" is no "Schnellschuss"!
So the Paderborn discussion also was none.

Susanna: Well, IMO both are. The Paderborn discussion was set so short after the event that most people interested had not time to come - also, if some time had passed, tempers would have cooled down a bit and the discussion might have been far more fruitful.

Because it depends on the results such things have.
Paderborn at least got people sensible for the theme and
ready to do something and hear a lot of different oppinions.

I don´t think that the event in Paderborn made people more sensitive about what happend, it was a result of the sensitiveness resulting from reports about what happened. As I said above: The reports about the discussion support my opinion that this event was far too quickly held, tempers were hot and no real results derived from the whole thing.

The "Aachener Erklärung" seems recently to get a lot of
people together, that already have signed it, that normally
would not get into contact or rather working together.
Might be because they simply do not know each other,
might be they do not like each other.

This is nice, but I miss a broad discussion behind this Declaration, involving the museums, the universities, politicians, and the reenactors. This is too unilateral and not clear enough for my taste.

What I miss is a "letter to public" on your homepage f.e.
there you might explain your point of view.
And a "sorry" (not only a written one!) for what happened with the tatoo would be very helpful,
at least for the people who felt offended.

Yes, that might have helped, but coming so long after the event and after several petitions to do just this, it would lack some credibility. Nonetheless it would be a good thing, in the end.

[Jona Lendering]

It's not at all like the SCA's (in-)famous 'no religion' dictum.

What's that about?

In the SCA, since it is dedicated to the idea that All Shall Have Fun, no ceremony that is in any way mandatory or central to an event may contain any religious elements in order to ensure that all can participate. This is often understood to mean that the SCA forbids religious practices, either their reenactment or their actual practice, but that is not strictly speaking true. Private SCAdians can (and do) reenact Viking blots and medieval masses or actually pray and sacrifice to their heart's content. They cvan not do it in the context of an 'inclusive' event, though. There was a minor stink a few years ago when a knighting ceremony involved leading the populace - incluiding several atheists, agnostics and Jews - in a rendition of 'non nobis, domine'. I was in the kitchen at the time (my usual excuse) so I can't speak to details, but it is the kind of thing the rule is supposed to prevent.

I don't know how many of you heard of the Ulfhednar case - it isn't pretty.

No, I haven't, but I am interested. Any discussion about the relation between history and politics is important; I think it is naive to maintain that the two can be separated.

caiustarquitius pre-empted me here. Basically, a (formerly) very successful German early medieval reenactment group called the Ulfhednar was the center of a storm after one member (or maybe just hanger-on, but certainly costumed participant) at a museum event where they were paid to display sported a tattoo of 'Meine Ehre heisst Treue', the SS slogan. Afterwards, people started pointing out that the group's vexillum looked spookily similar to a Nazi flag, that they seemed very fond of the colour combination of black, red and white and used swastika motifs a lot more than the evidence warranted. You can probably imagine the fun that was not had by all - this is a very touchy issue, especially since it involves public money and state-sponsored venues. Recriminations all around, with the usual suspects going off on crusades against neopagans, crypto-Nazi conservatives and allegedly incompetent museum staff. Personally, I came across the Ulfhednar website one or two years ago and while I was impressed by the craftsmanship and scope of their activities, I definitely got 'bad vibes'. I believe it is now defunct.

Thanks!

[Andreas Sturm]

Hello caiustarquitius,

interestingly enough, the Paderborn discussion was already planned before the incident itself took place. Of course, it got a new drive with the tatoo. The initial plannig was done by Karl Banghard mostly, as far as I know. So you would have to ask him, why the date was set as it has been done.

This is nice, but I miss a broad discussion behind this Declaration, involving the museums, the universities, politicians, and the reenactors.

Well, how can we bring all these groups together? The Paderborn discussion was a first step, mostly done by museum staff – and there were a lot of people from all over Germany present. The „Aachener Erklärung“ can be a second step to bring the reenactors together, discussing the problem on the events in the evening.

I did send Emails to the museums that hire me, they know about the declaration, even Paderborn knows about it. If a group with the Aachen-Logo on their’s site is hired by these museums, they will have a common basis to go on with the discussion.

Greetings,

Andreas

[Cassius Tullius]

I have been told by relatives in Germany that Priests and Ministers are salaried by the State.

Misinformed indeed. This is gross nonsense.

I din't believe I was grandstanding or proselytizing.

The "you" in my text was not referring exactly to you as an individual, it should be understood as "one". Like in "One does not eat one´s neighbour!"

It is my understanding that Germany levies a Church Tax. After the government rakes off a collection fee, it funnels the money back into religious institutions to pay for things like payroll of: priests, ministers, rabbis, and mullahs.

If you type German Church Tax into a search engine you will get a ton of stuff.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_20430865

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax

[caiusbeerquitius]

I have been told by relatives in Germany that Priests and Ministers are salaried by the State.

This is not the same as:

It is my understanding that Germany levies a Church Tax. After the government rakes off a collection fee, it funnels the money back into religious institutions to pay for things like payroll of: priests, ministers, rabbis, and mullahs.

Which is wrong again, since this is only the case for institutions which are acknowledged as churches. So far no mullahs, e.g., since the "official churches" have to have a common represantative (institution) for the state, which the different Islamic groups don´t have.
The church tax is levied to give more control to the state / people - if you are not member of a church, this money goes into a "social fund".
Backside is, that the cost for the levying of the taxes has to be financed by the state, which is in turn again canceled by the collection fee, of course. (<= simplified explanation)
Nonetheless, this part of the discussion is waaaay into modern politics.

[Cassius Tullius]

Hey,' if you say so; no mullahs....but you you do seemed to be now informed about what you before described as " gross nonsense." :o

This all tangential. I only brought up the subject of Germany salarying it's priests and minister because it juxtaposes what we're discussing. It also dovetails with your earlier posting about states role as censor when taxpayer money is used to underwrite re-enactment and your most recent post where say that the Church Tax is levied to give more control to the state/people. When the State becomes someone's paymaster, be it clerics or re-enactors, it has leverage against the activities of those parties; what you so succinctly describe as control.

Political correctness is the tool of the ideology that supports it. It's only purpose is to shape or influence thought in ways that are acceptable to that ideology.

You point out the State chooses who can be acknowledged as a church. The State chooses who can educate. Historical re-enactment can and often does serve as a vehicle for education.

[Redwald]

Christian,
Thank you for your reply to my post.
One of the other groups that use a very similar style flag is the Ermine Street Guard - I can post a picture, if you like. It is a rectangular flag suspended from a spear -- in fact, they use several different ones. It seems that other imperial Romans groups do, too.
The Ulfhednar flag is based on Roman prototypes. I am not sure that it really resembles an SS flag at all.
As for the use of the swastika on other objects, it maybe true that other groups have used it less frequently, but I find it difficult to understand how you can know how many times it may have been used by people in the past. It is likely that some populations used it prolifically, and others much less. Textile and leather remains are scarce on the continent and even rarer here in England so it may have been on many clothes. By the way, within Ulfhednar, most members do not use it on their clothes.

Paul

[Redwald]

Susanna,
I read your reply with great interest and have noted what you say.
The man with the tattoo was not a member of Ulfhednar; he did know a member. He also did apologise to the people of Paderborn for giving offence and to Ulfhednar for causing the group to be embarrassed.

Paul