Evidence for Gimbals?

[Eleatic Guest]

Some obscure paragraph at Wikipedia has it that Philo of Byzantium described in his works an ink pot suspended on a gimbal (German: Kardanische Aufhängung) for not spilling the contents. I cannot seem to find the exact passage though..any ideas?

[Endre Fodstad]

What in the world would be the purpose of having an ink pot that could turn itself upside-down if you happened to bump into it?

Or have I totally misunderstood what you are talking about? Gimbal to me equals:

[Eleatic Guest]

I got it from here:

Die kardanische Aufhängung wurde um 230 v. Chr. von Philon von Byzanz verwendet, um ein Tintengerät aufzuhängen, ohne den Inhalt zu verschütten.

However, I believe now the author must have confused the "kardanische Aufhängung" (the gimbal of yours above) with a universal-joint ("Kreuzgelenk") which Philo may have described in connection with the construction of catapults.

[Endre Fodstad]

"Tintengerät"...does that mean "inkpot"? I don't have my dictionary with me here at the moment but "gerät" as a suffix tends to mean "equipment" or "accessories" or something similar...

[Eleatic Guest]

"Tintengerät"...does that mean "inkpot"?

Yes. Gerät = device

[D B Campbell]

Athenaeus Mechanicus has a wheel that rolls in any direction, if I remember correctly. More like a castor than a gimbal, though.

[Endre Fodstad]

So it is an inkpot...but why mount an inkpot on an universal joint? I don't get it...I could have understood it if it was all his other writing supplies suspended from one, or from a gimbal...but the pot itself doesn't need further encouragement to tip over, does it?

[Eleatic Guest]

The inkpot may be an urban myth. I guess we need the relevant passage, but Philos works do not seem to be online.

As for the gimbals, they could have been advantageous in suspending globes and astronomical devices....pure speculation on my part though.

[D B Campbell]

I guess we need the relevant passage, but Philo's works do not seem to be online.

Yes -- Philon is difficult to find. Garlan's [amazon]Recherches de Poliorcetique Grecque[/amazon] (1974) has the text of the Poliorketika, and Marsden's [amazon]Greek and Roman Artillery: Technical Treatises[/amazon] (1971) has the Belopoiika. Off hand, I can't think where you'd get the Pneumatika. Nor have I any idea where he might have described an unspillable inkpot!! hock:

As for the gimbals, they could have been advantageous in suspending globes and astronomical devices....pure speculation on my part though.

Just for completeness, Athenaeus Mechanicus also mentions a device which is clearly meant to achieve the same result as gimbals. He calls it the pithêkion ("little ape") and claims that it stops shipborne machinery from rolling around the deck in stormy weather. (He doesn't describe it, though.)

[Eleatic Guest]

I got it! Well, just a secondary source:

One of Philos inventions was a novelty eight-sided ink pot with an opening on each side. One can turn the octagon so that any face is on top, dip in a pen and ink it-yet the ink never runs out through the holes of the side. The secret lies in the suspension of the inkwell at the center, which is mounted on a cunningly arranged series of concentric metal rings -known as gimbals- abd remains stationary no matter which way one tunrs the pot itself.

Peter James, Nick Thorpe: Ancient Inventions, 1994, p.118

They in turn quote: Sarton, G.: A History of Science, The Norton Library, Vol. 2., 1970: p.343-350

[D B Campbell]

However, I find their references a bit confusing. They go by whole chapters. This will need a deeper look.

Just curious -- what is the reference, Stefan?

[Wander]

Maybe it was just a curiosity, to baffle and impress people.

I knew a master machinist who likes to show people what appears to be a bolt with two heads, with a single nut spinning on the threaded part between -- yet he swears it's all milled from one piece. Refuses to say how he did it, and I know he enjoys people's bafflement trying to figure it out.

Maybe Philos was the same way...

[Barbara]

I got it! Well, just a secondary source:

One of Philos inventions was a novelty eight-sided ink pot with an opening on each side. One can turn the octagon so that any face is on top, dip in a pen and ink it-yet the ink never runs out through the holes of the side. The secret lies in the suspension of the inkwell at the center, which is mounted on a cunningly arranged series of concentric metal rings -known as gimbals- abd remains stationary no matter which way one tunrs the pot itself.

It's a pity that it is described as a eight-sided pot and not a twelf-sided one... With a twelf sided pot we would have had a solution for the Dodecaeder-probelm 8)

[Eleatic Guest]

However, I find their references a bit confusing. They go by whole chapters. This will need a deeper look.

Just curious -- what is the reference, Stefan?

Quote above is from: Peter James, Nick Thorpe: Ancient Inventions, 1994, p.118

They in turn cite: Sarton, G.: A History of Science, The Norton Library, Vol. 2., 1970: p.343-350

[Eleatic Guest]

Just for completeness, Athenaeus Mechanicus also mentions a device which is clearly meant to achieve the same result as gimbals. He calls it the pithêkion ("little ape") and claims that it stops shipborne machinery from rolling around the deck in stormy weather. (He doesn't describe it, though.)

Duncan, could you be so kind and point me to the exact passage?

Sarton has this to say:

One of the most curious items in the Philonian collection of apparatus and gadgets is an octagonal inkpot which has an opening on each side; one can turn it around, put one's pen in any hole and have it inked. This is made possible because the inkpot itself inside of its octagonal house is hung in gimbals. Philon invented what we now call the Cardan's suspension as applied to the ship's compass and barometer, or anything that must keep the same position in spite of outside motions. Girolamo Cardano (1501–1576) may have reinvented that clever trick, but Philon had invented it eighteen centuries before. The gimbals were known to the Chinese as early as the Han Dynasty and they were described also in the Mappae clavicula (VIII-2). The first description of a compass suspended in gimbals occurs in a Spanish book by martin Chaves, Breve compendio de la esfera y de la arte de navigar.

The apparatus wass described in the Pneumatics:

The most interesting of Philon's genuine writings is the Pneumaticas, whose influence was considerable. Out of 65 chapters in the Arabic text, only 16 exist in the Latin text, and it has been argued that the Arabic text contained Arabic interpolations. It is difficult to hold that the medieval Latin text is closer to the Greek original, because it was derived from an Arabic translation, as is proved by the basmala at the beginning. Arabic interpolations are possible, because the Arabic writers were fascinated by this subject, but the substance was already available in Greek, and we may safely assume that the Arabic version represents essentially the ancient original.