Greek re-enactors - how do you display?

[PMBardunias]

Stephanos, have you read the study by Donlan and Thompson where they made their students try to run this? I'f you're curious, email me.

One thing to consider is why you charge. I can think of three reasons, all fairly obvious:

1) To cover the dead ground quickly due to some threat- in this case arrows.

2) Psychology. At least since Kagan's book there has been much attention paid to the psychology of men entering battle. For the chargers this is the release of prebattle tension and the charge itself lends psychological momentum to the units. On the other side you would not want to recieve a charge flat-footed because the site of charging men would be much more terrifying if you were just standing there. In fact the "charge" is the most common threat display in many animals- you have probably seen gorillas or elephants do this and pull up at the last moment.

3) Physical force. There are specific limits to how one phalanx can physically crash into another. First, a tight packed and deep phalanx is invulnerable to small groups or thin ranks crashing into it. In fact it will absorb any initial collision- it cannot be knocked off the field from the initial crash. To push back a deep phalanx required a slow ratcheting push of many ranks.

There is nothing to be gained in terms of physical momentum from a charge from any farther away than the distance needed to hit your maximun speed for the charge. Thus only a handful of meters. Because of this I think the hoplites pulled up short at the end of their long charge and entered a period of doratismos. Some authors will claim that it is impossible for a charging group of men to pull-up after such a charge, but they are wrong.

Speaking of things thought impossible, it has been written that hoplites could not use their weapons while in othismos. That last clip shows this to be false as the men are easily seen hammering away overhand with their weapons while packed tight.

[hoplite14gr]

Paul I will email you on the study.

To make myself clear. I did not say that they din not charge or that charge is impossible in formation far from that.

I only say that the object was to coma close possibl yin advantageous position and charge covering roughly 200m if they faced Persians or 100 if they faced another phalanx


I strongly oppose that they charge full speed anything more distant than 200 meters.

Kind regards

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thank you for all your replies! Sorry to steer the conversation back to re-enactment but…

Well, in the case of Athenea, real spears are used for parades, during explanations, and when weapons are shown to people.
Before the combat, real spears are changed, and other ones with false blade are used. real spears are very dangerous in combat, and over all because of the people that are watching. Other thing are gladiatorial games, where there are only two people, far from the crowd, this makes easy to use real weapons because everything is more controlled

each one does it and try to make it look as real as possible. That remembers me that I have to do my own one :lol:

Thanks Servio. When you say ‘real’ spears I assume you mean ‘sharp’ spears. But does that mean you fight with sharp steel weapons in gladiatorial games?! hock:

What are the false bladed spears? Wooden hafts with blunted steel heads or plastic/rubber? They didn’t look obviously fake (which is good)!

We have tested "phalanx breaking

Looks great Stefanos! That looks like combat, or was it shield barging with no weapon blows? This looks like combat at least (unless it’s a photo pose)! :wink: http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh84 ... C01250.jpg do you use sharp or blunt weapons in Greece Stefanos?

I would have thought that with the nice gear people just used it to parade in, I don’t want my super thin brass helmet to get dented, or once I spend 100+ hours on shield have it ruffed up.

I agree Tim - As I mentioned in your ‘Modifying a Depeeka Corinthian Helmet’ thread, the thinness of the helmets might explain why there seems to be so few Greek combat groups out there! Shame. As I said it would be nice to get a helmet that could stand up to a beating even if I don't ever need it to! I wonder if Manning helmets are of a reasonably strong thickness (not that you’d let anyone dent it! ?:

The fact that all the hoplites shields look so perfect made me suspect the spears weren’t metal tipped! Even blunt ones can do some serious damage (as my later period shields will testify!)

[Pericles of Rhodes]

We are usually using spears with foam spearhead In combat, as shown in the picture. For any other occasion (parade, museum event and so on) we use our real weapons. The trainingsweapons are simply made of foam and tape.

A great idea Kallimachos! Love it! It preserves your kit, is safe and looks like great fun! If only they looked like spear heads it would be perfect.

This type of pushing, othismos in Greek, is integral to hoplite warfare- probably more important than weapons play. If anyone knows these fellows, I'd love to pick their brains on how they "re-discovered" these tactics.

Looks like your standard shield wall to me! We do this kind of thing in my medieval societies. Staying together is always a good survival tactic!

that one in Russia uses real weapons!! hock:

Real yes, sharp no. Most medieval (and other period) combat societies I know (and the two I am a member of) use ‘real’ i.e. steel weapons but with blunt edges and rounded points. A lot of training and safety requirements are, of course needed though!

Will there be any combat at Marathon in 2011? If so what method will you use?

[Servio Caro (Javier Sánc]

Thanks Servio. When you say ‘real’ spears I assume you mean ‘sharp’ spears. But does that mean you fight with sharp steel weapons in gladiatorial games?! hock:

What are the false bladed spears? Wooden hafts with blunted steel heads or plastic/rubber? They didn't’t look obviously fake (which is good)!

Yes, I mean sharp spears. About the false bladed spears, there are different models :lol: ones are made of rubber, other with wood and some padding, and all painted to look as real as possible.

About gladiatorial games, we don't do it (only some 1 vs 1 hoplite duel) but I have seen some roman gladiatorial games that uses real weapons (at least metallic weapons, don't know about sharp). Maybe you can find it in the gladiators forum :lol: I suppose that there is the same that you use for training, black swords are called, isn't it? swords without tip and sharp

Anyway everyone is very careful during these battles, we know how expensive is the kit, and everyone controls the hits. the hoplite in front of you can be very angry if you hit his shield too strong!! he has spent a lot of money and hours working on it.

[PMBardunias]

Looks like your standard shield wall to me! We do this kind of thing in my medieval societies. Staying together is always a good survival tactic!

I agree, and yet the mechanics involved are largely unknown to those who write about hoplite combat. Perhaps because they largely ignore reenactors.

Where I believe hoplite phalanxes and shield-walls part company is in what occurs after this initial collision. Without an aspis protecting the diapragm, these men cannot survive the types of pressures that ranks of 8-16 determined men can exert on each other for long without passing out.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I wonder if Manning helmets are of a reasonably strong thickness (not that you’d let anyone dent it! )? Giannis?

The manning helmets are made of 1,2 mm brass/bronze with a thicker nasal. It feels strong,but you can bet on it,I would't want to test it. Or perhaps if someone was too curious on it,he should then agree to test my (manning)spearhead. :twisted:
Off topic but i just remembered,when my father first saw my sauroter he said "And are you going to put this in the spear end? If i were you,I would throw it to the enemy as it is!" Haha,he got a point. If someone threw something that heavy on my helmet,it would certainly make a hollow on it!
Khaire
Giannis

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Looks like your standard shield wall to me! We do this kind of thing in my medieval societies. Staying together is always a good survival tactic!

I agree, and yet the mechanics involved are largely unknown to those who write about hoplite combat. Perhaps because they largely ignore reenactors.

Where I believe hoplite phalanxes and shield-walls part company is in what occurs after this initial collision. Without an aspis protecting the diapragm, these men cannot survive the types of pressures that ranks of 8-16 determined men can exert on each other for long without passing out.

Of course! That must be a great advantage in a dish shaped aspis! I’d never thought of that before. I suppose all the pressure of the crush of men in battle would be on your thigh and shoulder, rather than with a flat shield that crushes your whole body, leaving your chest and stomach in the bowl of the aspis so you can breath (and aren’t crushed to death!)

I was in a multi period bash at Kelmarsh this year and in a shield wall vs. civil war pike block I was completely winded and almost broke some ribs as did a few others. We had to back off and go again when people wanted to get out! I must try this with an aspis as soon as I finish mine! twisted:

I wonder if Manning helmets are of a reasonably strong thickness (not that you’d let anyone dent it! )? Giannis?

The manning helmets are made of 1,2 mm brass/bronze with a thicker nasal. It feels strong,but you can bet on it,I would't want to test it. Or perhaps if someone was too curious on it,he should then agree to test my (manning)spearhead. :twisted:
Off topic but i just remembered,when my father first saw my sauroter he said "And are you going to put this in the spear end? If i were you,I would throw it to the enemy as it is!" Haha,he got a point. If someone threw something that heavy on my helmet,it would certainly make a hollow on it!
Khaire
Giannis

Sounds great Giannis! Just what I would have specified, you’re a lucky man. 1.2mm of brass/bronze is very close to the thickness of metal that is recommended for our armour requirements in our full contact medieval re-enactments; though ours is steel. That should certainly protect your head from most things

Yes, I mean sharp spears. About the false bladed spears, there are different models :lol: ones are made of rubber, other with wood and some padding, and all painted to look as real as possible.

About gladiatorial games, we don't do it (only some 1 vs 1 hoplite duel) but I have seen some roman gladiatorial games that uses real weapons (at least metallic weapons, don't know about sharp). Maybe you can find it in the gladiators forum :lol: I suppose that there is the same that you use for training, black swords are called, isn't it? swords without tip and sharp

Anyway everyone is very careful during these battles, we know how expensive is the kit, and everyone controls the hits. the hoplite in front of you can be very angry if you hit his shield too strong!! he has spent a lot of money and hours working on it.

The wood/rubber spears are a great Idea for combat Servio, it looks like it works well if you want to look after your kit. Thanks for explaining.

The roman gladiators I’ve met use the same as my medieval groups – blunt steel swords. I’ve never met anyone brave (or mad) enough to fight with fully sharp swords!

[PMBardunias]

I was in a multi period bash at Kelmarsh this year and in a shield wall vs. civil war pike block I was completely winded and almost broke some ribs as did a few others. We had to back off and go again when people wanted to get out! I must try this with an aspis as soon as I finish mine!

If you'll send me an email ( [email protected] ) I'll send you a copy of an article I wrote on this very topic. I would love to hear more about your experiences being crushed in such a press and any aneckdotes about broken ribs or men that pass out. I have been extrapolating most of my theory from crowds, but I have faced questions as to the ability of hoplite phalanxes to generate such crushing forces. I myself cannot say this is the case with shallower phalanxes, so knowing the depth and other relevant features of the shield walls you have been in will help greatly.

[Pericles of Rhodes]

Thank you Paul I look forward to reading your article!

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:-

I would love to hear more about your experiences being crushed in such a press and any aneckdotes about broken ribs or men that pass out. I have been extrapolating most of my theory from crowds, but I have faced questions as to the ability of hoplite phalanxes to generate such crushing forces. I myself cannot say this is the case with shallower phalanxes, so knowing the depth and other relevant features of the shield walls you have been in will help greatly.

.....an interesting point, and I would love to hear anecdotal evidence too, but does it tell us anything about whether the Greeks deliberately sought to generate such forces? ....this is what you really need some evidence for to support your theories, Paul.....
Meanwhile, I am having fun following in Scipio´s footsteps in Spain.....lots of photos......

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Haa,Paule,I had been thinking you must be in some trip or something,having not contributed for ages in RAT! While in Spain are you planning to see any re-enactors from there?
As for the othismos of the Phalanx,I think that except from the few indications from the ancient texts, the shield wall in itself would point in a pushing match. On the one hand if you want to push,the hoplite shield and the fact that they overlaped is the identical combination. On the other hand,all the holitical equipment seems to be made for a not so technical way of fighting. And if the purpose of the phalanx was not to push,it was inevitable that in some point the two shield walls would touch. It was a physical thing to push and the phalanx structure points in that. What the video adds is that some re-enactors would indeed want to crash and push on an enemy formation and this was their primary goal.
It is one more point agains the statement that a pushing much is something completely ridiculous and pointless.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

.....an interesting point, and I would love to hear anecdotal evidence too, but does it tell us anything about whether the Greeks deliberately sought to generate such forces?

As with much of history, we must often settle for a convincing body of circumstantial evidence. If the phalanx clashed in a manner akin to the reenacted shield wall, then generating such forces was unavoidable and a simple result of masses of men colliding- deliberation is irrelevant. My only concern all along was whether they could in fact be generated by such shallow crowds. Obviously there is some perceived benefit to the tactic of crashing your shield wall into the enemy force or these reenactors would not do so. If there is an advantage, then we would expect such a collision-tactic to emerge anytime there is a wall of shield armed men.

The question then becomes one of how this tactical collision evolves, i.e. how do you improve on the basic concept. In this, overlapping shields or tighter packing of ranks may make for a more cohesive mass and impart more force, but the human body quickly becomes the limiting factor. At some point your group can generate no further force simple because the body of your men cannot withstand it and it will be as harmful to your own men as the enemy. The reenactors above have reached that limit.

So the case comes down to: a) To go beyond the pushing force which may have been common in any conflict of masses of men some means of allowing men to withstand the forces must be invoked. b) I can demonstrate that an aspis could fulfill this role due to its basic structure. So we have a motive and means. From their own descriptions of othismos, the Greeks seem to place more emphasis on this phase of battle than do other cultures with shield walls (The case for a figurative othismos is weak in my opinion, it is more a question of its form). From there to my vision of colliding crowds is only a matter of optimization.

To me the question is not "why did the Greeks evolve this tactic and panoply?" but "why did ONLY the Greeks develop these tactics?" My quick answer was "the aspis", and though true, it only makes us ask why only they developed the aspis. Perhaps the answer lay somewhere in the stylized nature of hoplite combat with its strict linearity.

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote-

While in Spain are you planning to see any re-enactors from there?

I had hoped to meet up with Thersites(Prof.Quesada) and Iagoba and his re-enactment group, but due to tight timings could not achieve this with Thersites, and I missed a Celt-Iberian festival that Iagoba's group attended by one day.......oh well, next time maybe.......

Paul B. wrote:

From there to my vision of colliding crowds is only a matter of optimization.

I would agree...such a thing is possible, and it is a question of how far the Greeks pursued this....I think your strongest point is the shape and form of the Aspis - which is complex in shape and quite complex to make, when for most purposes a flat circular shield would suffice, as in other cultures ....against are the natural instincts of people, the fact that Hoplites were mostly amateurs throughout most of their history, and that for true "crowd" effects to occur, a confined space is required; not to mention that a 'column' is a far better formation than a long relatively thin line for such tactics ( perhaps Thebans may have approached this, though generally, of course, for the most part columns serve 'morale' purposes rather than 'physical' ones...as has been discussed elsewhere on the forum)....hence I have considerable doubts about your hypothesis, as you know !!
It would be good if some re-enactors could share their experiences of 'crowd combat'......especially done deliberately.....

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

For that last one,Paul,I think everyone would agree! I would say cross your fingers and it may happen one day,but crossing our fingers will achieve nothing. It's in our hands...
Columns may be better. However it is well attested that every phalanx's greatest fear was flanking. Thus it's logically explained why deep formations were not favored. (They were,it just took time for the evolution to allow it)
Khaire
Giannis