Hellenistic Banners & Standards

[Dutchhoplite]

After a years of lurking here's my first post (and topic)

I guess a lot of people know the Roman eagles or the "boar standards"

I'm wondering about the Seleucid, Ptolemaic and all the other "hellenistic" states. What type of standards/ Banners did they use?? Are there any reliable sources that deal with this subject? If so, I'd be interested to hear about them.

Thanks in advance

[hoplite14gr]

For Pyrros and Italiotic allies please look here:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=22458

N. Secunda in his Seuleukidic armies is probably right on the "gorgoneion" of the Antigonides and later Seleukides as the same gorgoneio exis ton shield device of Athena statues in the Nat. Museum (Athens) dated at the time where Demetrios occupied Parthenon.

The Argeade star (Vergina Sun) starts with Philip II and remains until 168 B.C.

Hope it helps

[Dutchhoplite]

Thanks!

Well it´s a start :wink:

And shapes?? I have no idea about shapes and forms. Did they look something *like* a Roman Vexilium or completely different??

[hoplite14gr]

Most people based on some fragments of descritpions-mostly a Panathenena "ceremonial banner" opt for the Vexilum. If other types existedit is not known or info is not yet found.

Kind regards

[MeinPanzer]

You're looking for the article "Some Research into Macedonian-Hellenistic Battle Standards" by David Karunanithy, published in Slingshot 246, May 2006, pp. 1-9.

Basically, there are a few hints here or there, but only one or two solid sources. The general impression given by these sources is that Hellenistic standards were pretty much the precursors of the vexillum. By far the best source is this 2nd c. BC battle scene from Pergamon:

http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/image ... escene.jpg

Which probably depicts the battle of Magnesia, 190 BC, and a banner set up being some Seleucid phalangites. Note the 8-pointed Macedonian sunburst, which would probably have been a common Macedonian symbol regardless of faction.

The other sources are mainly the standard-tops from the Pergamene weapons reliefs, which do not have any sort of draped banner like a vexillum but which probably could have. They have generally elaborate vegetal decoration in the Hellenistic style.

The final source is from 1st c. BC Ephesos, on a weapons relief that shows what looks exactly like a vexillum associated with thureoi and a Hellenistic helmet. This one has no decoration, though, and just has a plain banner.

Hope this is helpful.

[Kallimachos]

Many thanks for posting this picture Ruben, I had it and couldn't find it again :?

[Paralus]

Which probably depicts the battle of Magnesia, 190 BC, and a banner set up being some Seleucid phalangites. Note the 8-pointed Macedonian sunburst, which would probably have been a common Macedonian symbol regardless of faction.

Yes, that may have been by this time. More common was the Macedonian circular shield device. Interesting the sunburst as standard. It has been argued that the sunburst shield was the unit signifier, originally, of the aesthetairoi (in the manner of the argyraspids).

[MeinPanzer]

Yes, that may have been by this time. More common was the Macedonian circular shield device. Interesting the sunburst as standard. It has been argued that the sunburst shield was the unit signifier, originally, of the aesthetairoi (in the manner of the argyraspids).

I've not heard this before. Could you elaborate a bit please?

[Sean Manning]

You're looking for the article "Some Research into Macedonian-Hellenistic Battle Standards" by David Karunanithy, published in Slingshot 246, May 2006, pp. 1-9.

Basically, there are a few hints here or there, but only one or two solid sources. The general impression given by these sources is that Hellenistic standards were pretty much the precursors of the vexillum. By far the best source is this 2nd c. BC battle scene from Pergamon:

http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/image ... escene.jpg

Which probably depicts the battle of Magnesia, 190 BC, and a banner set up being some Seleucid phalangites. Note the 8-pointed Macedonian sunburst, which would probably have been a common Macedonian symbol regardless of faction.

The other sources are mainly the standard-tops from the Pergamene weapons reliefs, which do not have any sort of draped banner like a vexillum but which probably could have. They have generally elaborate vegetal decoration in the Hellenistic style.

The final source is from 1st c. BC Ephesos, on a weapons relief that shows what looks exactly like a vexillum associated with thureoi and a Hellenistic helmet. This one has no decoration, though, and just has a plain banner.

Hope this is helpful.

Great post, Ruben; laus ad te.

The banner in the link looks a lot like Achaemenid Persian standards, which were also a square of material about 30 cm across atop a pole 2-2.5m long. I guess its another aspect of Hellenistic warfare which was influenced by the Middle East (although we aren't sure whether Persian banners marked units, or just generals).

When exactly did the Greeks start using standards?

[MeinPanzer]

Great post, Ruben; laus ad te.

The banner in the link looks a lot like Achaemenid Persian standards, which were also a square of material about 30 cm across atop a pole 2-2.5m long. I guess its another aspect of Hellenistic warfare which was influenced by the Middle East (although we aren't sure whether Persian banners marked units, or just generals).

When exactly did the Greeks start using standards?

Karunanithy thinks that it was adopted by Alexander some time during the beginning of the campaign. It was first adopted only by the cavalry by at least 324 BC, and was picked up by the infantry at an unknown later date. However, a standard-like object, called a phoinikis (as opposed to the semeion) was in use earlier. It was, as you would expect from its name, a shade of red, and seems to have been a flag or ribbon attached to a staff or spear. This is recorded being used by Athenian warships in 407 BC (Diodoros 13.77.4), while another item, called a tainia (victory ribbon), was used to signal in the Theban army at Leuktra in 371 BC (Diodoros 15.52.5).

Later, we have literary mentions of Antigonos Doson signalling the reserves at Sellasia in 222 BC with a phoinikis attached to a sarissa (Plutarch, Philipoimen 6). The phoinikis does not seem to have been marked by any kind of insignia, though, and so was probably just a red piece of cloth used for easy visibility in signalling.

[Paralus]

I've not heard this before. Could you elaborate a bit please?

Gingerly, yes. It is an argument presented by Ed Anson. It is yet to be published and so I must be careful.

'Tis a complicated subject. Firstly the discussion has long been centred on what aesthetairoi meant. Aside from Bosworth demolishing the notion that it was a "scribal error", nothing has really been settled upon.

In Readers’ Digest summary there are two ‘traditional’ positions: these troops were the “closest kin companionsâ€

[MeinPanzer]

I've not heard this before. Could you elaborate a bit please?

Gingerly, yes. It is an argument presented by Ed Anson. It is yet to be published and so I must be careful.

'Tis a complicated subject. Firstly the discussion has long been centred on what aesthetairoi meant. Aside from Bosworth demolishing the notion that it was a "scribal error", nothing has really been settled upon.

In Readers’ Digest summary there are two ‘traditional’ positions: these troops were the “closest kin companionsâ€

[Paralus]

At any rate, that could be the case within Macedonia proper, but it seems that the sunburst motif was used also outside of it by common troops. There are a couple of Ptolemaic painted stelae of Greek/Macedonian troops (perhaps phalangites depicted with shortened spears for the sake of fitting them in the field of view) with sunburst emblems on their shields, for instance.

Yes, absolutely. I was referring to its original use. Even so it seems, given the relative dearth of these style shields, that they may have continued in use for a section or unit of the Hellenistic armies?

[Dutchhoplite]

So you could say that the first standards/banners were used to indicate command, signalling and for identification of units??

I *could* imagine that once units were given ''regimental'' identity (and standards) this helped to preserve the cohesiveness and pride of each unit.

Is there any evidence for this??

[Sean Manning]

So you could say that the first standards/banners were used to indicate command, signalling and for identification of units??

I *could* imagine that once units were given ''regimental'' identity (and standards) this helped to preserve the cohesiveness and pride of each unit.

Is there any evidence for this??

I'd bet that they became more than just a signpost early on, but I don't know of any evidence. Middle Eastern standards seem to have been sacred in some way from the beginning (eg. there are a series of Persian coins with a shrine, a standard, and a reverent king). Roman standards were sacred too, so it is quite possible that Greek ones also were. Even in our secular age, modern militaries have a number of unusual customs about flags.