This has popped up at various junctures before, but it something I'd like to start a fresh discussion on.
At one time or another, most Roman groups will have displayed a copy of the belt set seen on the tombstone of Marcus Favonius Facilis, centurion of the XXth legion, which was found at Colchester.
Favonius' belt set bears a clear resemblance to a number of contemporary tombstones from the Rhineland, where similar motifs are likewise depicted on daggers and belts.
However, I have never, in any of the books I have read, nor museums I have visited, seen actual belt plates like those worn by reenactors copying this style. Likewise similar patterns appearing on dagger sheaths are not closely matched by finds from the ground.
Despite this, most groups have adopted the pattern at one stage or other, not only for centurions, but sometimes for standard bearers, common legionaries and republican era troops. This belt pattern is now being marketed by Deepeeka (#AH3847), and I suspect that a great many have been purchased by individuals simply copying other reenactors, and not looking at the archaeology for original finds.
My belief is that these depicted plates were generic motifs employed by the sculptors to depict what in real life would be extremely intricate and thus difficult to carve at a smaller scale in stone.
It would be churlish to claim that all such reconstructions are categorically wrong, but I do find them somewhat dubious when we have no actual finds to base these on, despite the thousands of actual plates that have been recovered.
Tim Edwards
Leg II Avg (UK)
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legiiavg.org.uk">http://www.legiiavg.org.uk
<a class="postlink" href="http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com">http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com
Hmmm, possibly plates similar to the numantia/ republican plates?
Also it would seem there might be a possibility for the rings seen on the
2nd cent plates discussed in another thread?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
I have several of the belts which I am going to modify by taking them apart
matching up the plates into sets of all the same plate and turning them
to make the belts narrower. So I wind up up with three different belts
all a bit less wide than the originals. Best I can do trying to get equipment
together on a budget for 16 grandchildren.
:lol: Good luck there John...you have a task and a half there!
At least you can send them out to plunder the neighbouring barbarian tribes for booty......
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
These are mine. The large plate arrived yesterday, I had seen it in pictures only prior to that. I am a collector rather than a re-enactor, mainly through time constraints. A proportion of the items you see in Laycock and Appels' RBMF belong to me, including for example both top pieces on the front cover. This is the first time that I have seen a plate which may match the type shown on the Facilis tombstone.
There is always a problem if you work from sculpture alone. The Facilis belt as sculptured does not have separate plates but shows a continuous crenelated design. There are other examples throughout the Roman era and a few are illustrated in the attached, including the Facilis example at the bottom.
Whether this reflects reality or as originally suggested is a clumsy attempt by a sculptor to depict an actual belt plate design, is the question we all grapple with on so many aspects when it comes to reconstruction.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
By the way, Nigel, your plate could be a military belt plate, but could be another kind of plate. It's visible a hinge, so could be a buckle for a saddle, part of a chest, and a long etc of posibilities.
Both right, I think I have been too hypnotised by the Deepeeka reconstruction rather than the original sculpture , and I do think that the hinge flanges on this plate are not very robust for a buckle spindle, though the greater width of that side than for a normal width belt would allow more flanges to take the strain. Back to the drawing board....
Well we all head there from time to time! :whistle:
Attached is my interpretation of Facilis for an article in 'Ancient Warfare' magazine ,although it never caught on.
I was suggesting that the body 'armour' was linen covered in a thin layer of leather with gilded leather reinforcements over the shoulder and around the waist (the belt). The article also included the conventional re-constructions with a mail shirt and the overly large belt plates.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
I'm of the "leather armor is unlikely" school -- a junior centurion (as Facilis apparently was) would find himself at the front of a battle line in the thick of battle and would, in my opinion, have a more robust defense than linen over leather. However, why not linen or thin leather over mail? I've seen plausible reconstructions of shoulder doubling that are mail faced with linen or thin leather; why not do the whole cuirass this way? It would provide the protection of mail but would provide a surface more suitable for decoration and embellishment.
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA
