Excavations in Pella 650-279 B.C

[Pericles of Rhodes]

has anyone seen this yet?! hock:
link from old RAT

This sounds really exciting! Fingers crossed for the warriors’ 'organic armour' (linothorax) surviving! Would love to know more about the finds if anyone comes across any info!

Copper helmets? This is interesting, despite the broad time frame the grave covers. Might they perhaps mean copper alloy i.e. bronze?
[quote]
Ornaments of gold foil â€â€

[hoplite14gr]

The translator probably translated literally.

The Greeks speak "chalkina antikimena" = "copper items" but they refer to bronze or brass itmes too because the term "oreichalkos" = copper alloy is not widely used.

So my focus is on linothorax - organic armor.

kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

This has been aired before....the 'organic body armour' in question in Macedonian graves is invariably described as leather, not linen.
I have asked on threads before for someone in Greece to try to obtain the original reports, but in vain....... ( (

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Funny,I just watched this in the Greek news. They had videos from the excavations but I don't know if thet were from these exact excavations or earlier. Some pictures showed gold and guilded decoration from a girl's burrial. In the videos I saw at least three Illyrian helmets "emerging" from the ground,a very well preserved iron sword and some iron spear heads. There was something that may had been neck and chest protection,but it could have been no armour at all. It was bronze and circular. There was also a bronze shield cover in not so good condition covering the dead. I didn't hea anything about organic matterials(who bothers about those when GOLD has been found :evil: )
Gold masks have been found with Illyrian helmets in Macedonia. Also,many llyrian helmets and even swords are decorated with gold extremely thin plates,presumably only for the burrial. Only one corinthian had traces of gold decoration on its nasal,now in the Thessaloniki museum.
Khairete
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

the 'organic body armour' in question in Macedonian graves is invariably described as leather, not linen.

This must have been the case until some years ago. Now you'll usually read "linothorax fittings" for instance. And in Greek language at least,when we read "lonothorax" we undestand "a linen thorax". Even in Vergina you'll find this,and I don't remember if this is the case in Thessaloniki museum,too. So,go figure!
Khaire
Giannis

PS. Byt he way,if anyone is interested,one of the shields found n Vergina had traces of the padding stuck inside the porpax. It seemed like either fabric,or a combination of fabric and leather. It's thickness didn't seem much more than 0.5 cm and only very little had survived,but I spent several minutes examinning it. As you all know,no photos are allowed in Vergina,and I had already been found taking two photos with my mobile phone so...i didn't want to risk it!

[Dan Diffendale]

There are some nice pictures available from the Daily Mail:
Treasure trove uncovered in ancient Macedonian cemetery
and information from Reuters:
Greece unearths treasures at Alexander's birthplace

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yep,except for the Illyrian helmet,the other two were the photos I saw in the news. But I don't see any photos from Reuters site(?). Few graves were from the "iron age",most were archaic and four were classical/early hellenistic.
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:

And in Greek language at least,when we read "lonothorax" we undestand "a linen thorax". Even in Vergina you'll find this,and I don't remember if this is the case in Thessaloniki museum,too. So,go figure!

....come, come Giannis - you are being misleading and disingenuous here. 'Linothorax' is in fact a modern English invented term, based on Greek words, to describe the Classical Tube-and-Yoke corselet, and as such it has been 'borrowed' and used in Greece too.
You yourself pointed out in another thread that the iron Tube-and-Yoke corselet from the so-called 'Philip tomb' was labelled in the Greek Museum display as a 'Linothorax'. The term doesn't tell us anything about the materials the Tube-and-Yoke corselet is made from, and is certainly not understood, especially nowadays, to indicate linen material. It is ONLY a highly misleading term for a 'Tube-and-Yoke' corselet of any kind, whether in English or Greek, hence my preference for 'Tube-and-Yoke' as a more accurate general description of the type of body armour. )
As to the Macedonian tomb finds, as far as I know there are plenty of references to leather in the news reports ( see previous Macedonian leather armour threads) but not one to even a scrap of linen..... we really need to see the reports which Ioannis was going to get, but sadly, he doesn't seem to post nowadays..... (

[hoplite14gr]

Homer calls Ajax of Oeleas "linothoriktos" in ILIAD.

Hence thorax from linen is not a modern invention.

Kind regards

[Kallimachos]

Linothorax is not a complete modern word. We got fragments of the speach of Alkaiois, there he mentioned the word "thorak(h)es neo lino". Aineias Taktikos calls them "thorak(h)es lineoi". Nepos calls them "linteae loricae" in latin. I also think that Homer and Herodot mentioned them but I can't remember the exact wording (Stefanos did :-) ) ).

[Paullus Scipio]

Stefanos wrote:

Hence thorax from linen is not a modern invention.

...ah, but it is, at least in a Classical Greek context....being invented by Peter Connolly.
But this is an old debate.
In this instance we are discussing the word 'linothorax', which as I say, is a modern invention in English and is NOT used by Homer or any other ancient author. Your memory must be a little short since we have discussed this word before, less than a year ago, in the 'linothorax construction' thread, p.14 when Duncan Head, as well as me, pointed this fact out to you when you alleged this....how many times does it need to be said?

Kurt wrote:

Linothorax is not a complete modern word.

.....sorry Kurt, but the actual word 'linothorax' IS a modern invention, just as more than one person has pointed out ( see above)
As for Alcaeus, this too has been debated before. He wrote circa 600 B.C. in Lesbos and was a contemporay of Sappho, and his poetry only survives in fragments....all his 'military' poetry, like that of Homer, refers to the Trojan war ( another fragment refers to chariots, for example) and in any event he was writing at least 70 years or so before the first appearance of the Tube-and-Yoke corselet in greek art....and clearly it is impossible for him to be referring to something which didn't exist yet !!!
Neither Homer, nor Herodotus use the word 'linothorax', nor any other ancient Greek author.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

You yourself pointed out in another thread that the iron Tube-and-Yoke corselet from the so-called 'Philip tomb' was labelled in the Greek Museum display as a 'Linothorax'

Come on now! Now you're being misleading. I never said this,and if i did,i would love to see your quote. What i said and i'm assuring you is that in Philip's tomb,except for the linothorax,there were found more golden fitting belonging to another suit of armour. Those fittings are describe to have belonged to a linothorax. The term linothorax not being known at all in greek society,it was put there to mean what it says. I linen thorax. I said nothing more. People have reported that in other cases similar fittings have been describes to belong in leather thorakes. I added nothing to the debate about what the actual thorakes were made of,and i don't think i'm being misleading. I'm rather clear. My real point was meant to be that museums cannot be trusted for either theory,since with so much leather found,there aught to be at least one sample in one museum. But no. I have seen nothing in any article nor museum. Only heard of leather thorakes,like of ones belonging to linen ones.
Khaire
Giannis

[Theodosius the Great]

Hello,


Some more pictures of the graves and jewelry from this article :
Greek dig unearths secrets of Alexander the Great's golden era ...






~Theo

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:

What i said and i'm assuring you is that in Philip's tomb,except for the linothorax

......except for the "linothorax"? Presumably here you are referring to the intact iron Tube-and-Yoke corselet, in which case haven't you just proved the point?

there were found more golden fitting belonging to another suit of armour. Those fittings are describe to have belonged to a linothorax.

You are quite right. Please accept my apologies....it was the fittings you were referring to as labelled "from a linothorax"....which as was pointed out at the time, was a totally unwarranted assumption(Makedonian Leather Armour thread 23 Oct 2007), unless the term was used loosely to mean a possible Tube-and-Yoke corselet of whatever organic material ( Incidently, they were found amidst organic fragments descibed as "wood and leather"....no linen, you'll notice)

People have reported that in other cases similar fittings have been describes to belong in leather thorakes.

Can you give specifics, please...are you saying you have seen reports that refer to 'leather thorakes' in a Greek context ? (As opposed,say, to Scythian or Thracian tombs where leather-based Tube-and-Yoke corselets are common, and occasionally survive more or less intact.)

since with so much leather found,there aught to be at least one sample in one museum.

....there are several...remember the photos of the Scythian one (minus shoulder pieces) in the Metropolitan museum in New York? Other Scythian/Thracian examples are to be found in Russian/East European museums.

In Greek/Macedonian contexts, burial customs and the archaeological conditions mean that all that remains are many leather fragments, usually roughly the size of a thumbnail or smaller........

[Arthes]

Xaire,
I just heard about this from Ouragos... Incredible photos....I have been fancying that Illyrian helm too..(well, a copy)
There were reports a couple of years ago (which should be on here somewhere) regarding the finding of aristocratic tombs, complete with the names of Antigona, Kleoniki and Nikosrati.
From the family of Antipater or Antigonos... :?:
I wondered if these are the nine from Alexander's period mentioned in the newspaper report.
Erroso