Posts: 402
Threads: 58
Joined: Jul 2006
Reputation:
3
My question is this:
What would happen if a Celt would walk around in a by Roman conquered province wearing purple(ish) clothes...??
I know purple was a color only alowed to the Roman elites and even then restricted to rules such the wide of the their purple clavii...
But what about the ignorant Celts comming from a whealty Clan??
far away in let's say 100 AD some where allong the limes...
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Posts: 1,086
Threads: 72
Joined: Nov 2004
Reputation:
0
As in all traditional societies, people would probably shake their heads and giggle.
The prohibition against purple (erratically enforced and never universal as far as we can tell) targeted the arrogation of symbols of power. If the authorities had reason to believe that kind of thing was going on, they would take very decisive action. A senator or (wqorse) military commander parading in a purple cloajk drastically reduced his life expectancy even under quite undersatanding emperors. A barbarian strutting his stuff in gaudy finery - well, what better do you expect of him? He has no clue and obviously, no evil intent.
Keep in mind, too, that the prohibition was specific to purple dye (the colour might well have been achievable by other means) and enforced only in some cases.
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!
Volker Bach
Posts: 402
Threads: 58
Joined: Jul 2006
Reputation:
3
Thanks guys....
So it apears I can put on my Purple shecked sagum then...
Without running into trouble with the roman law enforcers... :wink:
And what about the auxilia then...?
Would I be upsetting any tough strict Centurio??
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Posts: 1,189
Threads: 33
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation:
2
I think the ban was specifically aimed at the murex dye produced in and near Tyre. Apparently it was quite distinctive. Does the shellfish that produced it even exist now?
Pecunia non olet
Posts: 2,903
Threads: 18
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation:
15
The Murex/shellfish dye in ancient times produced 'True Purple' and was ( and evidently still is! - see Martin's post above) very expensive.
Most ancient 'purples' were actually a crimson shade.
Johnny Shumate pointed me to a brief but very good wikipaedia article on the subject.....
http://=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Posts: 402
Threads: 58
Joined: Jul 2006
Reputation:
3
Yeah that's good info.
Thanks Paul and Johny..
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Posts: 1,677
Threads: 75
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
5
FWIW, analyses of coptic textiles show that "purple" clavi, orbiculi, etc. were also made with a combination of madder and woad dyeing.
For a discussion of purple clavi and the significance of clavi in general see also Pausch, Matthias: Die römische Tunika. Ein Beitrag zur Peregrinisierung der antiken Kleidung. Wißner, Augsburg 2003. pp 112.
Posts: 35
Threads: 2
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation:
0
For those interested, I wrote some years ago the following article
De techeletkleur van de purperslak about this subject. It's in Dutch, but at the end there are several links to English articles.
JP van de Giessen
Blog: [url:xayumokv]http://bijbelaantekeningen.blogspot.com[/url]
Posts: 402
Threads: 58
Joined: Jul 2006
Reputation:
3
Interresting... thank you very much JP.
I happen to be dutch, so do understand all of it.
Most of the story is about the color AD do have maybe more info about this color BC?
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Posts: 35
Threads: 2
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation:
0
Hi Folkert,
No I haven't much information about BC. In the Tell-el-Amarna Tablets (1400 BC) there is a phrase
subatu sa takilti - a garment of purple
There are some archeological findings in Israël and other countries of colored cotton but this seems always the "Madder" (Rubia tinctorum L. Dutch: Meekrap) I've posted some references on my
website (see Referenties, right above), which is an abstract from my forthcoming book "Flora of the Bible".
For a timeline of the use of Murex trunculus see
Navon
JP van de Giessen
Blog: [url:xayumokv]http://bijbelaantekeningen.blogspot.com[/url]
Posts: 402
Threads: 58
Joined: Jul 2006
Reputation:
3
Thanks JP
Folkert van Wijk
Celtic Auxilia, Legio II Augusta.
With a wide interrest for everything Celtic BC
Posts: 235
Threads: 16
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation:
0
Purple dye was made by a mullosc or some other kind of shell fish that is believed to be extinct today. Even in Roman times it was very rare and expensive. Because of this, it's unlikely a barbarian would come by purple cloth unless he killed someone of very high rank in society. That would mean his punishment would be death.
Even if someone made purple in some other way (supposedly there wasnt an other way) they would still be showing themselves to be a higher rank than others. It'd be like impersonating an officer today, but with harsh Roman justice. Average people would be ticked off at someone trying to look better than everyone else anyway.
Nomen:Jared AKA "Nihon" AKA "Nihonius" AKA "Hey You"
Now with Anti-Varus protection! If your legion is lost for any reason, we will give it back! Guaranteed!
Carpe Dium
Posts: 35
Threads: 2
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation:
0
Quote:Purple dye was made by a mullosc or some other kind of shell fish that is believed to be extinct today.
Please give some references where this extinction is mentioned.
Quote:Even in Roman times it was very rare and expensive. Because of this, it's unlikely a barbarian would come by purple cloth unless he killed someone of very high rank in society.
Not if the cheaper purple color from the Madder is used, but Celts were living too far north, for making this purple from the Madder, because the plant was imported in the Netherlands and other areas in the 15th century. But if he was rich enough he could imported it, cities like Thyatira and Sardis were exporting this stuff.
JP van de Giessen
Blog: [url:xayumokv]http://bijbelaantekeningen.blogspot.com[/url]