Linothorax Pictures

[Apollodoros]

Hello, I'm looking for any linothorax pictures u can provide from greek paintings and pottery. I Have done the normal searches threw search engines and the few books i have on hand and have come up with very few. I can give my email in a PM if Needed.

[PMBardunias]

I have many of them. send me an email and I'll reply with some. Also try to narrow down what you are looking for. Are you interested in very early depictions, atypical depictions, depictions that show various scale patterns, arming scenes, etc.

[sitalkes]

Hi, a complete linothorax (or scale armour version) has been found in Bulgaria. I have posted some photos of it on the Yahoo! Thracians group photos page: [url:1efs381u]http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/thracians/photos/browse/10b3[/url]

[MeinPanzer]

Hi, a complete linothorax (or scale armour version) has been found in Bulgaria. I have posted some photos of it on the Yahoo! Thracians group photos page: [url:linvzb0s]http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/thracians/photos/browse/10b3[/url]

Chris, am I right in thinking that the cuirass in those photographs is an original, organic backing and all, and not a reproduction?

[sitalkes]

Yes, it's all real, amazing, isn't it? Not much niformation is available as this is a recent, unpublished find.

[MeinPanzer]

Yes, it's all real, amazing, isn't it? Not much niformation is available as this is a recent, unpublished find.

You can understand if I'm skeptical, but yes, if that is totally original, then it is an enormously important find. That would be the first complete organic tube-and-yoke cuirass ever found including pteruges and all. The only reason I'm a bit wary is because the gorget looks like it's in a poor state of preservation - any idea if that's a hard leather backing or a metal backing? The cuirass itself just looks perfect... I can't even find a blemish in those pictures in the edging.

[sitalkes]

Sorry, no other information is avaialable, the photos were posted on a Russian site, I don't speak Russian, and the person who posted the photos got into trouble for posting illicit photos of unpublished material. I have posted the links to the page before (its a sort of Russian Roman Army Talk) but when I get home I'll look them up for you. In Bulgaria there have been so many fantastic golden artifiacts found that if its not made of gold it doesn't get talked about much. Many other suits of armour made of leather have been found in Bulgaria (and leather ,or leather backed, shields also) but I've yet to see any pictures of them.

[PMBardunias]

The yoke appears greek style, but I wonder how much the tube owes to steppe tradition. The pic is not so clear, but to me it looks like the armor closes right over left, but not truly double-breasted. If you look at the two first pturges on the right side, they seem shortened as though intended to overlap the longer ones on th other side. I have never seen such shortened pturges on one side of a greek tube and yoke depiction that shows arming.

I think its an excellent example of cultural mixing.

[MeinPanzer]

The yoke appears greek style, but I wonder how much the tube owes to steppe tradition.

Nothing. Tube-and-yoke cuirasses were adapted from the Greeks by the Getai, Scythians, etc. There is no reason to believe that there was a separate genesis of this type of armour on the steppes.

The pic is not so clear, but to me it looks like the armor closes right over left, but not truly double-breasted. If you look at the two first pturges on the right side, they seem shortened as though intended to overlap the longer ones on th other side. I have never seen such shortened pturges on one side of a greek tube and yoke depiction that shows arming.

I think its an excellent example of cultural mixing.

Yeah, there are a few interesting details here - those two shortened pteruges; the circular sections cut out above the shoulders; the fact that there is only one shoulder yoke and that the armour on the other side changes from the shoulder to the neckhole in three "steps" (see this picture: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/thraci ... /10b3?b=11 ). But the most exciting part is how perfectly this matches the representations of Getic nobility on the various gilded plates that have been found. And if those greaves pictured also were found with the cuirass and helmet, that matches even more perfectly.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

First of all thank you Sitalkes for posting this. It's excellent.
The yoke is not 100% greek style either. It is one piece with the tube,which is indeed the case in some greek representations and in Philip's iron quirass. Also the narrower part of the shoulder flap which is tied to the chest is longer here than in any greek representation i have seen.
It is significant I think that the tube is fastened to the right side and not the left,as it probably belonged dare i say to a cavalryman,and certainly not to a hoplite. Paul,I'm not sure it was meant to overlap right over left o the oposite,the fact it was found this way doesn't mean it was worn this way. But I can't see any fittings or straps to fasten it. But there are indeed similar depictions in greek vases. Remember the long discussions about the vest linothorakes? I suppose they're in the linothorax design-construction thread or to the linothorax again thread. It can't be clear from these photos,but the short pteryges could have been cut/unpreserved? What are the scales made of? They're tiny!
The back of the yoke is interesting. In the place where the shoulder flaps connect to the back there is a circular hole cut,most probably to allow the arm to be raised easier. Perhaps for thowing javelins?
Laudes Sitalkes
Khairete
Giannis

[Dan Howard]

In the place where the shoulder flaps connect to the back there is a circular hole cut,most probably to allow the arm to be raised easier. Perhaps for thowing javelins?

IIRC Xenophon mentioned cutting a piece out of the shoulder of a bronze cuirass to make throwing a javelin easier.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Yes,but i don't think it would be like this...This cut in the tube and yoke thorax would just make the already flexible shoulder flap even more flexible,allowing it to be raised. It doesn't make any space for the shoulder to pass through. But greek thorakes were exactly the oposite.They were wider in that area,and indeed when i made mine I wondered what was the purpose of it.
The whole cuirass apears flexible however.And although scaled,it is thin.
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Mein Panzer/Ruben wrote:

PMBardunias wrote:
The yoke appears greek style, but I wonder how much the tube owes to steppe tradition.


Nothing. Tube-and-yoke cuirasses were adapted from the Greeks by the Getai, Scythians, etc. There is no reason to believe that there was a separate genesis of this type of armour on the steppes.

....I would not be so quick to be so categorical....there certainly was a distinct Scythian/Steppe Nomad style of body armour, of scales sewn to thin leather backing, and of a wrap-over style similar to a modern Judo/Karate Gi, and wrapped right over left, usually worn with the typical broad armoured belt over it. This armour is typically extant from the 6th -4th C B.C. With the appearance of the Tube-and-Yoke corselet, we see the Yoke added, and then the Tube -style body, not always of scale mounted on leather, but sometimes of leather only.
This Thracian thorakes displays characteristics of both Scythian and Greek styles, as do many from steppe burials.

Some observations:
Giannis wrote:

It is significant I think that the tube is fastened to the right side and not the left,as it probably belonged dare i say to a cavalryman,and certainly not to a hoplite. Paul,I'm not sure it was meant to overlap right over left o the oposite,the fact it was found this way doesn't mean it was worn this way.

I would support the view that this was a horseman's corselet. It is not that the pteryges are shortened, so much as the two side ones being lengthened to cover the sides of the vulnerable thighs to provide protection( typical of a horseman's armour). Giannis is right that one can't be certain as to which way it overlapped - the Japanese, for example normally wrap right-over-left, but the opposite, left-over-right, for funerals. However close examination reveals that this thorakes is almost certainlydesigned to be right-over-left.

What are the scales made of? They're tiny!

...they appear to be a mixture/combination of iron and bronze, in bands for effect, and this accords well with other finds; both Thracian and Scythian contexts....
Significantly, I notice that no-one has commented on the obvious fact that, like every other piece of Thracian or Scythian Tube-and-Yoke corselet, the scales are mounted on a brown LEATHER corselet, as are the scale gorgets also shown. The incorrect term "linothorax" is a complete misnomer here.

The back of the yoke is interesting. In the place where the shoulder flaps connect to the back there is a circular hole cut,most probably to allow the arm to be raised easier. Perhaps for thowing javelins?

..I would agree the circular cutout adds flexibility at the shoulder, as does the narrower Yoke shoulder piece, allowing the arm to be unhampered and held horizontal for archery, or raised for Javelin throwing.

Lastly, this is not the only example of a relatively intact Thracian or Scythian leather-and-scale corselet to be displayed or published ( see the finds of Dr M.V. Gorelik for example), or the New York Met Museum sample, illustrated in another thread here.......

[MeinPanzer]

....I would not be so quick to be so categorical....there certainly was a distinct Scythian/Steppe Nomad style of body armour,

Of course, but all I meant was that this was adapted from the Greek style of armour, and did not emerge independently.

of scales sewn to thin leather backing, and of a wrap-over style similar to a modern Judo/Karate Gi, and wrapped right over left, usually worn with the typical broad armoured belt over it.

I'm curious, how many sources of steppe armour of this type show wrapping right over left? The only actual example in which this could be clearly determined that I can think of is the Solokha comb, and there the cavalryman's cuirass appears to be left over right.

I would support the view that this was a horseman's corselet. It is not that the pteryges are shortened, so much as the two side ones being lengthened to cover the sides of the vulnerable thighs to provide protection( typical of a horseman's armour).

How can you tell how long the side pteruges are from the pictures provided, or how long almost any of the pteruges are? In the photographs almost all the pteruges are shown foreshortened. And, come to think of it, can you provide any clear examples of longer side pteruges for armour for cavalrymen?

...they appear to be a mixture/combination of iron and bronze, in bands for effect, and this accords well with other finds; both Thracian and Scythian contexts....

What? Are we looking at the same photographs? They appear entirely iron to me with a few spots of discoloration.

Lastly, this is not the only example of a relatively intact Thracian or Scythian leather-and-scale corselet to be displayed or published ( see the finds of Dr M.V. Gorelik for example), or the New York Met Museum sample, illustrated in another thread here.......

I am very skeptical of the Met example... I've not seen it formally published, and it looks fishy (no scale pun intended). Certainly Chernenko did not include it in his comprehensive survey of Scythian armour published in the 2006 work "Die Schutzwaffen der Skythen" (though he does include a very well-preserved, though still fragmentary, leather-backed composite cuirass from a kurgan from Volkovcy).

As to Gorelik, what finds are you referring to, and from which publication(s)? I'm looking through his "Oruzie Drevnego Vostoka" right now and can only find the same few scattered remains Chernenko mentions (namely the Volkovcy find and the remains from Nymphaion).

[Paullus Scipio]

Mein Panzer/Ruben wrote:

Of course, but all I meant was that this was adapted from the Greek style of armour, and did not emerge independently

...I agree, the 'Yoke' style appears to be adopted from the Greeks c. mid 6th century, but I was referring to the distinctive scale-on-leather wrap-over corselets that trace their ancestry back to Middle Eastern examples c. 1500 B.C., and which the Scythians modified to their own distinctive style.

I'm curious, how many sources of steppe armour of this type show wrapping right over left? The only actual example in which this could be clearly determined that I can think of is the Solokha comb, and there the cavalryman's cuirass appears to be left over right.

AFIK, where the remains are sufficiently intact to determine this, the corselets generally wrap right-over-left e.g. the 5th C Sem'Bratiev Barrow in the Kuban, which Cernenko and Gorelik( Osprey "Scythians"; caption P.6) state confidently, overlapped right-to-left; and note that in general Scythian tunics are depicted in ancient art as wrapped right-over-left, as is still the practice in Asia today..... but I did say"one can't be certain which way it overlapped" :wink:

How can you tell how long the side pteruges are from the pictures provided, or how long almost any of the pteruges are? In the photographs almost all the pteruges are shown foreshortened. And, come to think of it, can you provide any clear examples of longer side pteruges for armour for cavalrymen?

...we are looking at relative dimensions here....in the front-on photo it can readily be seen that the left long pteryge, shown almost straight, is as long as the waist- to- armpit measurement...more than enough to cover the rider's thigh. For examples of Scythian armour hanging over the thighs, see Gorelik's reconstructions in the Osprey volume referred to above, Plates E2 and F1 in particular....

What? Are we looking at the same photographs? They appear entirely iron to me with a few spots of discoloration.

The different iron (grey) and bronze( gold) scales are readily apparent in the photo of the rear,with the man admiring it; and the frontal view showing upper body iron, then a bronze band with decorative triangles in iron under the arms, then an iron band to the waist, then bronze pteryges, with an iron band at the ends....