Alternative History: what if?

[Thorvald]

I had this talk with a friend of mine last weekend about alternative history.

What if when the Germanic tribes invading the Roman empire were actually defeaded by the Roman legions, and Rome re-established order and discipline in the empire. How would history have look like?

Romans preventing Anglo-Saxons invading the British Isles, the Frankish tribes were drived back across the Rhine River.

England would not have become a Germanic country, and English language, British Empire, etc never existed. France who inherited its name from the Franks would probably still be called Gaul.

Anyone opinions on this alternative history?

[Ioannes_Ahenobarbus]

The problem with alternative history is that almost any scenario can be devised, making it practically useless for scholarly reasons. However, it is still really fun and interesting to discuss!

Here is one addenda that I will add in order to simplify my response: after the Romans hypothetically overcame the crises (3rd-5th centuries), they maintained hegemony over all territory held in the early 200's.

That being said and in addition to what you have written, less discord in the Balkan peninsula due to more permanent Roman political stability, Latin would still be taught in schools (huzzah!), the middle east would be more stable, the Byzantine Empire would not have existed, Islam would not have spread so rapidly in the early 7th century, the Persian Empire might have not been destroyed, and my friends might actually be calling me "Ioannes Ahenobarbus" as a real name.

[Titvs Statilivs Castvs]

Or even in 9 AD: what if Varus was not defeated?

[Marcus_Ulpius_Trajanus]

If you can find a copy, Alexander Demandt's book, "History That Never Happenend: A Treatis on the Question, What Would Have Happened If...?" is worth checking out.

(For those German speakers, it was originally published in German under the title "Ungeschenene Geschichte: Ein Traktat uber die Frage: Was ware geschehen, wenn...?")

Demandt discusses both the pros and cons of thinking this way, and then goes off and gives some examples of 'counterfactual' history and does mention Sandrus' scenario--Varus Victorious--Demandt's opinion is that Germany would have ended up Romanized, and the "Crisis of the 3rd Century" would not have happened (or have been anywhere near as bad) and likely Europe would still be ruled by Roman Emperors.

Curious and fun to speculate upon, but alas, we'll never know for sure.

[M. Demetrius]

Sounds like a good scenario for a world conquest computer game..."Civilization As If"

[Jona Lendering]

However, it is still really fun and interesting to discuss!

Actually, it's not just fun - the question who we are, and why we have become who we are, is at the core of the discipline called history.

[Robert Vermaat]

What if when the Germanic tribes invading the Roman empire were actually defeaded by the Roman legions, and Rome re-established order and discipline in the empire. How would history have look like?
Romans preventing Anglo-Saxons invading the British Isles, the Frankish tribes were drived back across the Rhine River.

What do you mean? Why is this alternative history? It really happened!!

Germanic tribes invading the empire were always defeated. It just so happened that they could take advantage of the Romans endlessly fighting each other!

Romans always prevented Anglo-Saxons from invading Britain. It took the Saxons 40 years after the Romans gave up britain before the first gained a foothold - and these were invited in!

The Franks were always kept in check - thos inside the borders were invited there and had settled in the later 4th century - it took them over a century to gain independence, when the western empire was falling apart anyway!

[Timotheus]

Imagine the ideas. A unified Europe under Rome being attacked by the Mongol Horde.

China and Rome exchanging diplomats on a regular basis with formal treaties.

Either Rome learns to balance her economy or she expands. Where does she expand to after stabilizing Europe?

A unified Roman Europe wont have much trouble with the Vikings but maye be interested in her sailing technology.

[M. Demetrius]

Which could mean expansion into the Americas opening a whole new frontier for Roman colonization.... :!:

[Jona Lendering]

Which could mean expansion into the Americas opening a whole new frontier for Roman colonization.... :!:

There's a group of reenactors in Pennsylvaniathat made me smile when they said they were defending the Frontiers of Rome in the Mid-Atlantic Province of North America.

[Nihonius Legio]

I love the Chaos Theory, that even the smallest details of change have a huge impact on the world. If Rome didnt fall as it did in history, and didnt fall from some other reason later on, the possibilities are still endless. We could have ended up speaking Latin, or maybe Latin would have evolved into a new language just like English and other languages have over time. So many people wouldnt have been born just because of this little detail, that maybe things we dont have even now would have been invented by a person who does not exist in our world. Maybe Albert Einstein's ancestors would have moved to Spain instead of Germany for work for the Roman government on containing a revolt, Albert Einstein wouldnt have existed and we likely wouldnt have nukes. A small ripple in a timeline creates a massive tsunami in the future.
Though time travel is impossible (unless someone can even concieve how it wouldnt fail if we had the means to do it), such power should not be tampered with by mortal and unseeing mankind.

[Epictetus]

Even Latin changed with time. People at the time of Caesar had trouble deciphering old inscriptions. I think Livy and Cicero both mention this. So it would certainly be conceivable that Latin would still be spoken, but it would just have morphed into a modern version.

Several years ago some company had a "what if" commercial that depicted a futuristic Roman Empire. I remember a triumph on a hover-craft chariot or something like that. Unfortunately I can't remember the company. It might be on youtube somewhere.

[noblefuse]

facts: albert einstein wrote famous paper in 1905. not recognized until 1912 by a famous scientists willing to back him up- as no one wants to put up their reputation for someone unknown. einstein was not proved correct until 1921 on the orbit of mercury- and not for e=mc^2 until the year 1933.**************HOW LONG FOR CLEAN ENERGY???************ a quote by einstein--"Nothing that I can do will change the structure of the universe. But maybe, by raising my voice I can help the greatest of all causes - goodwill among men and peace on earth

[M. Demetrius]

Welcome to the forum, noblefuse! No surprise something as revolutionary as Einsteinian thinking took years to be published and accepted...heck, it takes twenty years just to get a picture of a Roman helmet found in some river to be published so people can see it, and that's a tangible object. :wink:

We have a forum rule here, though, (please read RAT posting Rules) that requires members to put their real name in the signature block. If you need help finding that block to add your name, send me a PM, and I'll give you the steps.

(But not the Steppes, they're not mine to give....) :lol: BTW, he hasn't achieved the goodwill among men part yet...some folks don't suscribe to his recommendation.

[noblefuse]

thank you M. Demetrius Abicio