Political correctness encouraging piracy

[Magnus]

They should do the same thing they did in WWII, turn some of the "merchant" ships or yachts into well disguised fighting ships, crewed by naval personel. The pirates wouldn't know who to attack then....

[caiusbeerquitius]

Ooooh. Finally someone who says something and is at least a bit informed:
:wink:
[url:35dgohiy]http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,594457,00.html[/url]

[john m roberts]

These pirates also showed poor judgment in seizing an American ship and taking an American hostage with a new president in office who can't afford to be seen as weak or indecisive. Republicans traditionally accuse Democratic presidents of being weak on defense and if there had been no action they would have eaten him alive. Everyone remembers President Carter's endless dithering over the Tehran hostage crisis. It cost him his presidency. Of course it was the call of the naval officer in charge on the spot, but the president has received very good press here anyway and the opposition can't complain too loudly.

[Magnus]

Ooooh. Finally someone who says something and is at least a bit informed:
:wink:
[url:111tfmm9]http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,594457,00.html[/url]

Over-fishing from European and other countries and dumping of toxic waste seems to be a different problem than piracy...I don't see how they are connected?

Are you suggesting we feel bad for the local fishermen because nothing was done about the above problems, but now there is an international response due to the hijackings?

I'm not saying the fisherman in that article is lying, but where is all the evidence of this dumping? Other than a few bits of hearsay...same with the over-fishing. Hard to say if any of those ships are respecting Somalia's international waters...the article doesn't mention it. As for illegal drag netting...that's been going on all over the world for how long now?

[caiusbeerquitius]

No, I´m suggesting that all this seems a bit more complicated, as usual, and that problems are not best solved by decapitating them, but by finding their roots and then act accordingly... with the help of some brains...
I´m not taking a position here or comment a lot on the piracy, as I don´t know enough about it and the problems surrounding the situation to be a worthy commentator on the events. Or least, to produce anything sensible. I think in general it is better to shut up about things one doesn´t know a lot about. Of course, sometimes one is tempted to comment nonetheless. That´s when simple minded solutions enter the stage. P

[Magnus]

What are the roots of crime in general though? Usually it has to do with poverty, or person A wanting what person B has and has no legitimate way of getting it, except by stealing or robbery.

That is an issue with humanity itself, and if they're not willing to change on their own, then some convincing is required. In this case that convincing manifests itself in the form of armed warships and dead pirates.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Great that it´s all so simple.
I wonder why they don´t just bomb the shit out of the Pirate´s dwellings, which would be easier and cheaper than patrolling the sea... :lol:

[Jona Lendering]

These pirates also showed poor judgment in seizing an American ship and taking an American hostage with a new president in office who can't afford to be seen as weak or indecisive.

Good point.

[Bran ap Maclou]

Everyone remembers President Carter's endless dithering over the Tehran hostage crisis. It cost him his presidency.

Christian Malar is the only french journalist who interviewed all the last american presidents. He tells about Jimmy Carter if I remember well : "I asked him what he think about Khomeiny [during or just after the islamic revolution] and I was astonished to hear him answer with such an honest naive face :"I'm sure we will agree very well because he's a very religious man just like me"."

bye

[Bran ap Maclou]

A few reports (in french) about piracy and the famous Ponant's affair with 30 hostages

Piracy generally speaking
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x51wsx ... eries_news

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x52ggm ... malie_news

Ponant' pirates arresting
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x569bo ... -de-l_news

Bye

[M. Demetrius]

Hey Christian, people don't get arrested and put on trial for the reasons they committed a crime, it is because they committed it. Motive may have an effect on the punishment phase, and sometimes on whether they are convicted.

Thousands of other people live in Somalia who have boats and they don't involve themselves with piracy. The whole population is pretty impoverished, by US/German/Western standards, yet some people don't seem to succumb to the temptation to extort money from the owners of commercial ships. Poverty alone is not the culprit here. I'd have to say the short answer is twofold: Greed and Opportunity. OK, an utter disrespect for commonly known international maritime law. Greed, Opportunity and Lawlessness.

*******
On another note, I really appreciate how all of us are handling this. It could become a closed thread, and we all know that. So keep on self-editing, and we can have a conversation here. Get testy and start namecalling, and it will be locked or removed, or both....

[caiusbeerquitius]

people don't get arrested and put on trial for the reasons they committed a crime, it is because they committed it.

Exactly. But a smart society in which people care for each other at least a bit will try to get rid of such reasons to reduce the source of criminality. Education often helps as well.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Over-fishing from European and other countries and dumping of toxic waste seems to be a different problem than piracy...I don't see how they are connected?

Hm, well, the final crime is done by individuals, of course, and those are responsible and have to be dealt with. No doubt here. But nobody acts out of the blue on that scale with such an high amount of criminal energy. And one big problem here is that the actual and / or felt exploitation and injustice has made piracy socially acceptable in Somalia the same as in wide parts of the 2nd and 3rd world, too. I guess, most Somalis look at those pirates as kind of Robin Hood-like figures, regardless of the fact, that they are just criminals, who don't share anything of their spoils.
Basically its the same with piracy as with other crime / terrorism. Isolate the perpetrators from the rest of the society and dry out their actual and moral support by bettering the economic conditions of the people.
Force is just part of the solution and if used solely will just make worse the situation as the Somali people will show solidarity and more pirates will emerge in kind of a vicious circle of revenge and poverty. So unless you're prepared to invade and kill virtually all resistance, going the Roman way, so to say ..piracy won't end.

[M. Demetrius]

I have to admit, I don't have the kind of love for humanity that allows me to overlook a career pirate's behavior and offer him education and more money to quit his job. Hats off to those who do, but I guess I don't measure up. The problem is clearly expressed in the title of the topic. Sorry to tiptoe on the edge of the precipice here.

Somalia has been given billions of dollars of aid over the last two or three decades, since the drought-induced famine, to set up schools and improve living conditions, etc., different church and civic groups have gone in convoy to bring food and medical supplies to those living in the remote areas, only to have their people kidnapped, trucks burned, supplies destroyed and stolen by various "warlords", and so on. Nothing has improved since the "Blackhawk Down" incident.

The same kinds of criminal people have moved to the open waters now, is the only real difference, going after bigger shipments. Notice that the two ships of US flag attacked (the second hijack attempt unsuccessful!) in the last few days were carrying food and medical supplies to be distributed to the Somali poor. Other countries have done the same things, of course, and for the most part, these goods are paid for by the taxpayers of the countries of the West. They're not robbing ships, then, they're robbing all of us, though indirectly. If poverty truly were the problem, and food and goods were the answer, then these pirates would welcome the ships into harbor and help unload and perhaps oversee the foods and medicine's being distributed to their people. Notice that none of the extorted money reportedly seems to be making its way to the poor in Somalia? Must be something else at work here.

The pirates are not the victims here, folks. They worsen the situation for their countrymen by stopping supplies and (now) attracting military force to their waters to protect other people's/nations' goods and interests.

[Dante]

I may sound a bit harsh ( for modern times ), but pirates are nothing more than sea going trash! Laws or no laws I would not venture out to sea without proper small or medium weapons ( just in case ). If by chance I escaped, I would take a note out of Julius Caesar's writings and track down the pirates and have them cruifixied ( spelling in error ) in mass numbers and in public, if I could get away with it. I believe Pompey preformed similar examples with the pirates he caught. This stopped raiding for a good while along Italy.
As a side note one does not hear of armed pirates boarding ships from China or Russia ) I think they know what will await them ( a five minute trail and a bullet to the head ). Sometimes as Americans we must show the world that we are not push overs--- STRENGTH and Honor!


Dante