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12-17-2003, 04:45 PM

www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Etruscan.htm 
Just to add to the confusion.. Scroll down to the greenish and yellowish pictures. The helmet on the right. 
Do I see separate roundels on the temples there? 
This one is supposedly etruscan, Vth C.B.C. 
I always thought the circles represented in painting and sculpture were meant to be temporal volutes integral with the skull as in the Attic style.. 
That is a type I did not know, which goes to show that unknown types do exist... 
The number of segments is not the issue on the Intercisa/Berkasovo. Berkasovo types have been found with two segments (Budapest) and up to six (Deurne). 
-In the Berkasovo the skull is riveted to a rather high crown to which are fixed the nasal, cheek plates and neck guard. Sometimes there is an ear hole and sometimes not. The cheekguard hinges are protected by plates. 
The construction is of very good quality. 
The Eastern/Persian tradition is evident. 
-The Intercisa type is always made in two halves, with no high crown, no nasal and cheek guards and neck guard directly affixed to the skull. There is no protection for the hinges and apparently some didn't even have any. Ear holes are always present. The construction goes from fair to wretched quality. The tradition is not persian, I think. 
That is definitely not the same type for me. 
Besides, the majority of the pictures of Intercisa types I saw was not silver plated. Moreover the embossing on the Intercisa examples was very crude (stars, moon crescent and demonic eyes) compared to the very elaborate decoration found on some --but not all-- Berkasovos. 
Several Intercisa types found elsewhere, like at Augst, for instance were of plain iron and had no sign of ever having been plated. 
The fact that all the Intercisa helmets found at Intercisa were silver plated maybe has to do with the fact that the non silver plated ones rusted away.. 
To state that all Intercisa types were silver plated is far fetched, I think. 
Not to mention the fact that in the Late Empire craftsmen called Barbaricani (if I remember well), were specialized in silver and gold plating of weapons. The Intercisa site may well have been one of their workshops which would explain the presence of several silver plated examples. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://localhost:1094/Homesteads/_1750094854/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 12/17/03 6:05 pm

aitor iriarte · 12-17-2003, 08:33 PM

Hi, Antoninus, 
 
<To state that all Intercisa types were silver plated is far fetched, I think> 
 
Well, I was in fact meaning that all the helmets found at the Intercissa fabrica were ONCE silver plated 
 
<Besides, the majority of the pictures of Intercisa types I saw was not silver plated. Moreover the embossing on the Intercisa examples was very crude (stars, moon crescent and demonic eyes) compared to the very elaborate decoration found on some --but not all-- Berkasovos> 
 
The Intercisa helmets were stripped of their valuable silver plating before they were discarded to a corner. The embossing that you see is on the iron core elements and it helped to raise or to lower decorative stripes or fields on the silver plating, now totally disappeared. When I reconstructed the iron nucleus of the Deurne helmet I had to channel grooves into some of the iron components, which are exactly like those on some of the Intercisa helmets. 
 
<The Intercisa type is always made in two halves, with no high crown, no nasal and cheek guards and neck guard directly affixed to the skull. There is no protection for the hinges and apparently some didn't even have any> 
 
Well, the Worms helmet, an Intercisa one which was once plated with embossed silver too, possesses a base crown, now only covering its back half and its neckguard was attached to it by the same system than in Berkasovo type helmets (While the lost neckguard belonging to the Concesti helmet was attached to its crown by means of hinges) At least one of the Augsburg-Pfersee helmets, belonging to the Intercisa type, had a nasal protector. 
 
Summing up, IMO general trends can be detected, but we have got too few of them as to state anything categorically! 
 
Aitor

**Robert Vermaat** · 12-18-2003, 12:20 AM

Yes, I go with Aitor on this one. ALL Intercisa-type helmets were at one time silver-plated. Some remains were only detected by looking at the rivets, which showed signs of the silver plating. So-called Burgh castle/berkasovo types as well, though I have not read the report yet of the Burgh castle helmet. The Iatrus helmet (there are more, I have not read the report) was silver plated as well, as was the Maastricht helmet. the last one is of uncertain type. It is either single or double-pieced, with a crest, and with a chi-rho monogram at the front of the brow. No sign of a nasal or cheek/neck plates.. 
 
Were the 'Enigma' helmets silver-plated? 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

12-18-2003, 05:00 AM

I thought the Palaestrina mosaic was from the early Empire? I believe it's supposed to represent the Praetorian Guard, hence the scorpion device on the shields and everyone being clad in tunics instead of armor. The scorpion is anachronistic, however, since the scene is supposed to take place in Augustus' time (hence the Montefortino helmets) but had to have been made after Tiberius (he was the one that gave the scorpion device to the guard, since it's his birth sign). Source for this is the Osprey Praetorian Guard book by Rankov.

aitor iriarte · 12-18-2003, 05:39 AM

Robert, 
Just one short remark: Neither the Augst helmet, nor the Burgh Castle one were apparently silver plated. 
 
Aitor

**Robert Vermaat** · 12-18-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:<hr>Neither the Augst helmet, nor the Burgh Castle one were apparently silver plated<hr> 
 
Like I said, I haven't had the chance to read the Burgh castle notes yet. The Augst helmet seems to be the sole helemt not to have been silver plated. 
 
BUT! Klumbach noted that, in contrast to the very good condition of the helmet, it seemed that the crest had been violently removed, and that all of the rivets were missing. He proposed that the rivets may have been of silver, and that this might very well have happened when they and the silver plating was removed from the helmet! 
 
In any case, the Augst helmet has a unique feature, because it has slits for a detachable crest. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 12/18/03 10:48 am

12-18-2003, 12:21 PM

While we are talking about weird and hypothetical headpieces, what about these. It's from the arch of Septimus in Rome... 
Imperial-Phrygian type? 
 
<img src="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/SEPTIMUS.jpg" style="border:0;"/>

NightHunter24 · 12-18-2003, 05:21 PM

Wow these 'phrygian' type helmets look so unRoman. Could these guys have been foederati in roman service?Because as I recall many of the roman allies fighting within the Roman army were allowed to keep their native dresses and customs. Correct me on anything if I'm wrong.

aitor iriarte · 12-18-2003, 07:23 PM

Oh, why not Roman? 
Remember all those Third century brass (masked) helmets with a forwards bending apex ending in an eagle head, for example... 
 
Aitor

**Robert Vermaat** · 12-19-2003, 12:03 AM

Actually, they all look like Santa's Little Helpers to me...

Thiudareiks Flavius · 12-19-2003, 02:25 AM

Smurf-helms. Definitely. Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 
 
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NightHunter24 · 12-19-2003, 02:56 AM

Hey Aitor yes you are right. It's kind of a bad habit I have. For me if it doesn't look like the Gallic type for the early legions or the late Roman type for the later empire like the one in the Fectio pic, it doesn't look right to me. I guess I have to grow out of that. Are there any good books on the subject of Roman helmets out there? 
 
"Smurf-helms" O-M-G that is so funny Thiudareiks!

12-19-2003, 09:16 AM

The Phrygian Smurf helmet appears again worn by one figure on the sarcophagus at www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Rome.htm - the one captioned "Romans fighting Gauls". Interesting that this one also has the long cheekpieces associated with 4th-century BC "Thracian" helmets that have the same skull shape. 
 
Could it be a cap worn over a helmet? Or a "Hellenistic revival" feature?

**Robert Vermaat** · 12-19-2003, 11:40 AM

Or, as I've proposed before, it was an actual helmet, like the 'Enigma' helmets, but of non-Roman origin. Maybe the artist wanted to signify the wearer as a non-Roman. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

aitor iriarte · 12-19-2003, 01:25 PM

The fighter wearing the 'smurf' helmet is clearly a Roman. The rest of Roman helmets belong also to the 'fantasy' kind. we can see the ubiquituous 'attic' helmet with a ring on its apex! 
 
Aitor

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