greek poleis

[Sean Manning]

Those posts are becoming so long and argumentative that it's impossible to follow.

That seems to happen a lot when Michael and Paul clash! But we are getting a bit away from the original topic. We all seem to agree that the distinction between poleis and other settlements remained important throughout ancient history, so a list of poleis (as distinct from a list of ancient settlements in Greece) makes sense. The difference was one of organization and political status not necessarily size.

[PMBardunias]

We all seem to agree that the distinction between poleis and other settlements remained important throughout ancient history, so a list of poleis (as distinct from a list of ancient settlements in Greece) makes sense.

I completely agree with that. Just a no map of the USA would be worth consulting without the states marked so too greece, with or without leagues, cannot be understood with out the poleis.

[Paralus]

PMBardunias\\n[quote]What I don’t do is attempt to preface a discussion with degradation though names like “Two-bit Peloponnesian piss-antâ€

[PMBardunias]

I have explained the usage of the word intended but accede to the fact that usage may vary from culture to culture. I have, therefore amended the description; the import remains.

This demeaning comment is what I initially labelled laconophoic, for a needlessly demeaning comment cannot be other, and elimated any sense of objectivity in your commentary. Your retraction eliminates the label. Without that, your take on hellenistic Sparta is still incorrect, you have even argued aginst yourself in this thread, but since you believe that there is a label "Laconophobe" that has any relevance in modern parlayance I shall refrain from using it. I shall simply note that you fall on the opposite side of the spectrum from those who wrongly propped up Sparta in education, and ask that you examen your opinion through that lens.

[Paralus]

The argument presented has been consistent. I will make it asimple: Sparta was left a bellicose rump, firstly by Epaminondas and secondly by Philip. Both were in positions to crush Sparta should they have sought it. Sparta’s refusal to defend her territory ("little empireâ€

[PMBardunias]

As to whether Sparta was an powerless tool of Macedonian hegemony, or a state that was still formidable in the region and a direct threat to Macedonian hegemony over the peloponnese and southern Greece, I shall leave it to the readers to decide based on what I have already written. The following is worthy of comment though.

[quote]The argument presented has been consistent. I will make it simple: Sparta was left a bellicose rump, firstly by Epaminondas and secondly by Philip. Both were in positions to crush Sparta should they have sought it. Sparta’s refusal to defend her territory ("little empireâ€

[Paralus]

Clearly Epaminondas either could not take Sparta, or more probably wisely realized that it would not be worth the loss of life when he could create barrier states around her and perhaps force force tribute from Sparta...

… As to Macedon. Surely they did the same calculation.

Quite – I do not believe I’ve argued otherwise. The sources make plain that a street by street battle was what was in the offing – certainly for the Thebans. The response was not to unnecessarily waste Theban blood on the defeated enemy – one might also wonder just how committed the Peloponnesian “alliesâ€

[PMBardunias]

[quote]Quite – I do not believe I’ve argued otherwise. The sources make plain that a street by street battle was what was in the offing – certainly for the Thebans. The response was not to unnecessarily waste Theban blood on the defeated enemy – one might also wonder just how committed the Peloponnesian “alliesâ€

[Paralus]

I have most of his chapters, and often agree with him- though his chapter on Spartan pederasty is not even internally consistent, never mind correct.

Are we speaking of the same book? Anton Powell's Athens & Sparta: Constructing Greek Political and Social History from 478 BC ? There is no chapter on Spartan pederasty. There is, though, a subject within the chapter "Life within Sparta" termed "Pressure for Homogeneity: the dining group; marriage and homosexuality" of which pederasty takes up four paragraphs. His reasoning seems impeccable - and balanced - to my reading.

PMBardunias\\n[quote]I don’t see it so much as “opportunismâ€

[PMBardunias]

Are we speaking of the same book? Anton Powell's Athens & Sparta: Constructing Greek Political and Social History from 478 BC ? There is no chapter on Spartan pederasty. There is, though, a subject within the chapter "Life within Sparta" termed "Pressure for Homogeneity: the dining group; marriage and homosexuality" of which pederasty takes up four paragraphs. His reasoning seems impeccable - and balanced - to my reading.

No we are not talking about the same book. I said I have just about all of his "chapters", the ones contained in the various books he edited. One of them delt with pederasty, and seemingly began from the point of view that there was institutionalized and obligate sexual pederasty, then hammered "facts" in to fit the mold.

[quote]PMBardunias wrote:
I don’t see it so much as “opportunismâ€

[PMBardunias]

[quote]Sparta’s refusal to defend her territory ("little empireâ€

[Paralus]

[You have a habit of argueing against things I have not said. Let me be clear: Doson became the master of Sparta and subjigated her in all the ways you say. What he did not do is take the city by force. There was no siege.

Hence my explanation of the wrong word (invest) – used by myself. No argument against unsaid things; rather clarification.

In any case, back to the original posit….

By the end of the 5th c the concept of polis is rapidly becoming obsolete in any case..

We see the polis as functional political and military unit being eroded by the rise of leagues- the Peloponnesean, Delian, Boeotian, and many others … In hellenistic times most of the old Poleis within Greece are joined into leagues such as the powerful Achean and Aetolian.

I would disagree strongly with the first. The concept of the polis and, a fortiori, that elusive eleutheria – even if mirage – was strong enough that, in 86 BC, Athens would take action that resulted in the following (Plut. Sulla 14.23):

There was therefore no counting of the slain, but their numbers are to this day determined only by the space that was covered with blood. For without mention of those who were killed in the rest of the city, the blood that was shed in the market-place covered all the Cerameicus inside the Dipylon gate; nay, many say that it flowed through the gate and deluged the suburb.

Rhodes would, of course, resist Antigonus’s bullying to declare with him against Ptolemy and win the right to set its own foreign policy and Argos (see below) would resist both Sparta and the Achaean League (though not always successfully).

In hindsight we may well observe that the notion (eleutheria), by the mid third century (at the latest), was a chimera. Even so, Sparta, Athens, and Argos were prepared to chase the chimera when offered the opportunity by the Ptolemies, Antigonids or Seleucids. Although you have singled out Athens and Sparta as separate cases I believe they were indicative of the thinking of the other Greek poleis. The difference is in the fact that – as in classical times – the smaller poleis were not ever in a position comparable to these larger entities. Megalopolis came to be another. Also we hear little in our sources about the smaller poleis.

It remains important and indicative that the Hellenistic monarchs could offer the chimera of “Freedom and autonomyâ€

[PMBardunias]

PMBardunias wrote:
By the end of the 5th c the concept of polis is rapidly becoming obsolete in any case..

We see the polis as functional political and military unit being eroded by the rise of leagues- the Peloponnesean, Delian, Boeotian, and many others … In hellenistic times most of the old Poleis within Greece are joined into leagues such as the powerful Achean and Aetolian.

I would disagree strongly with the first. The concept of the polis and, a fortiori, that elusive eleutheria – even if mirage – was strong enough that, in 86 BC, Athens would take action that resulted in the following (Plut. Sulla 14.23):

Well, you cannot agree with the second and disagree with the first, since the second was to clarify my meaning in the first! I have repeatedly written in this thread that the the polis did not cease to exist, but its status as the primary "functional political and military unit" was eroded by leagues of poleis. The examples of countries in the EU or states in the USA should be clear.

As for the rest of your post, you have eloquently summarized all that I have written on this thread, perhaps more eloquently than myself, so I have no comments. This should now be clear to any interested. Especially the distinctions between fully autonomous poleis in short-term military alliances, tyrranical leagues such as the Peloponnesian and Delian, egalitarian leagues such as the Achean, and being subsumed within a Hegemony or later empire.

[Paralus]

Well, you cannot agree with the second and disagree with the first, since the second was to clarify my meaning in the first!

Not so much agree with the second (though I have no issue with the facts of league membership) rather that I don't see it as supporting the first assertion. As I noted, we should explore the second. There are differences in the type of league and "constitution" of same. I would say that the "concept" of the polis was nowhere near redundant by the close of the fifth century (or later for that matter). It is the paradox of virulently defended eleutherai and voluntary subsumation of same in symmachia that intrigues me. The two co-existed for the entire history of the polis.

I find the Achaean League an interesting animal. For all its its high-minded rhetoric it never baulked at stooping to mounting military excursions to Athens to force it to join it. Ditto Argos. Ancient Greeks will be ancient Greeks or old habits die hard.

As for the rest of your post, you have eloquently summarized all that I have written on this thread, perhaps more eloquently than myself, so I have no comments.

Just when I'd though eloquence had quit my fingertips. Perhaps we have bored the socks off the forum....