greek poleis

[PMBardunias]

Sparta, for the great bulk of the Hellenistic era, was a two-bit Peloponnesian piss-ant.

I see no need to be offensive, and you know I take offense at such virulent Laconophobia. This statement is also incorrect. Sparta found herself at war with Hellenistic kings perhaps more than any other Greek polis.

When Phillip was busy "uniting" the Greeks, Sparta thumbed her nose at him. He sent a message that "If I come to Sparta I will destroy you!" The Spartans answered in classic Laconic style: "If"

Alexander was so miffed he specifically excludes them from the rest of the greeks in sharing his victories. This is perhaps not suprising, because in Alex's absence Sparta had allied herself with the remnants of the Persian fleet and romped unchecked through Crete and the Peloponnese for the better part of a year- defeating at least one Macedonian force.

She then came close to derailing Alex's eastern expedition at the "Battle of Mice", a far closer-run thing than the moniker Alex supplied us with might indicate. Had the Spartans won, and the battle was one of the most brutal Greece had seen, Alex surely would have been checked by a "Lamian war" come a few years early.

Demetrios thought Sparta worthy of siege, and he's a fellow who knew a thing or two about sieges.

Even with rampaging pachederms and furious Keltoi Pyrrus broke his famously ridge-like teeth on Spartan defensive lines excavated by women and manned, in substantail part by the old and young men normally unfit for service. The Spartan army later hounded Pyrrus to Argos where he was dispatched by a fine Doric matron armed with terracotta.

Atreus of Sparta met Antigonos at Corinth in the Chremonidean war.

Agis IV attempted to bring a populist revolution to Greece. After his death, his wife's new husband, Cleomenes III, did so again, though with more sinister motives. He succeeded so well with message of debt-relief and land reform that a Macedonian force was begged back into the Peloponnese, by the very man who ejected them from it, to defeat the Spartans at Sellasia. Plutarch thought enough of them to compare them with the Gracchi, and some hold, though I do not, that all of Christianity owes a debt of mythology to Cleomenes III's end in Egypt.

Phillip V has to fight his way out of Laconia at Menelaion.

Nabis makes such a nuisance of himself that Roman intervention is called for. The political savy of two Spartans will later lead to the suicide of Phillipoemen, "the last Greek' and a perennial foe.

This does not even take into account the actions of individual Spartans in foreign service. Cleonymus was a bigger thorn in the side of Macedonians while in the service of Pyrrus than he ver was to Sparta, and Xanthippus changed the course of the first Punic war and doomed Rome to fighting two more.

A "piss-ant" is something you crush easily and be done with, not something you war against with varying success and failure for generation after generation.

Also, you said nothing above that counters my claim that the vast majority of poleis were politically irrelevant outside of their action as part of a league of poleis. Federations and empires had simply outpaced the resources of single city-states.

[Paralus]

Sparta, for the great bulk of the Hellenistic era, was a two-bit Peloponnesian piss-ant.

I see no need to be offensive, and you know I take offense at such virulent Laconophobia. This statement is also incorrect. Sparta found herself at war with Hellenistic kings perhaps more than any other Greek polis.

Oh for God's sake (or should that be the Gods' sake) climb down off the Laconophile high horse. No offence was ever intended. In Australian parlance "pissant" describes a bloke constantly battling against the stronger and, to be frank, being beaten. A constantly argumentative nobody or "small fry", generally with a singular "bee in his bonnet". A frank and realist description of the residual annoyance that was Sparta in Hellenistic times.

I am about to watch The Life of Brian with my son and so do not have much time. Your examples of Philip II and Alexander II are flawed: you need to sit back and realise why it might be that Philip desired an aggressive Spartan rump, boxed in by his invasion, to remain. And, for that matter, why his son decided to leave it that way.

Yes Sparta rose (the “battle of miceâ€

[Paralus]

Also, you said nothing above that counters my claim that the vast majority of poleis were politically irrelevant outside of their action as part of a league of poleis. Federations and empires had simply outpaced the resources of single city-states.

Mainly as I fail to see the need. I have attempted to present the view as seen by a citizen of one of those poleis. The argument - "the vast majority of poleis were politically irrelevant outside of their action as part of a league of poleis" - could apply to most any time in the history of the poleis. To quote yourself: "In hellenistic times most of the old Poleis within Greece are joined into leagues".

And that is different to the classical period in what sense exactly?

Philip's consolidation of the Macecdonian state put an end to any Greek state's dreaming of hegemony. The money and manpower marshalled by his dominion - including the Thessalian confederacy and Thrace - was beyond any single Greek city-state. Indeed it might well have, in my opinion, proved beyond the Athens of 433 or so.

[PMBardunias]

Me

By the end of the 5th c the concept of polis is rapidly becoming obsolete in any case.

You

And that is different to the classical period in what sense exactly?

I'm glad we agree, not sure what you were arguing about. Somehow you decided we were considering only the helenistic period.

[Sean Manning]

I expect that Hellenistic historians would have a problem with that! Poleis survived and remained important at least into the Roman conquest and arguably well beyond that, from what I've read.

We see the polis as functional political and military unit being eroded by the rise of leagues- the Peloponnesean, Delian, Boeotian, and many others.

In hellenistic times most of the old Poleis within Greece are joined into leagues such as the powerful Achean and Aetolian. That is not to say that the old polis dissapeared, only that they as an independant force were largely irrelevent. The exceptions were Sparta, who always was something of a league unto itself or perhaps a mini-empire, and Athens whose naval and commercial power made it less centralized and insular than the average polis.

Here are some examples of what I mean. There's Plutarch's pride about Chaeronaea in +II. Hellenistic kings made generous gifts to important poleis, including but not limited to granting them their “freedomâ€

[PMBardunias]

Your examples of Philip II and Alexander II are flawed: you need to sit back and realise why it might be that Philip desired an aggressive Spartan rump, boxed in by his invasion, to remain. And, for that matter, why his son decided to leave it that way.

Odd, since a politically useful and militarily threatening counterweight to Macedonian hegemony would see to be somewhat "relevant." First you say that Sparta was never a threat outside its own borders, now she is a boogeyman to keep the rest of Greece in line. In any case, history was to prove that leaving Sparta unconquored was a mistake for Alexander.

[quote]Yes Sparta rose (the “battle of miceâ€

[PMBardunias]

Here are some examples of what I mean. There's Plutarch's pride about Chaeronaea in +II.

Remember, I did not say they cease to exist, only that they have to be grouped into leagues in order to be a political force in the world that was emerging. Corinth, Sycion, etc. defeated Macedon under Aratus- only they did it as something called the Achean league. Its a bit like being a proud New Yorker, yet no country fears invasion by New York. Europe under the Union is approaching this status.

[quote]Hellenistic kings made generous gifts to important poleis, including but not limited to granting them their “freedomâ€

[Paralus]

Your examples of Philip II and Alexander II are flawed: you need to sit back and realise why it might be that Philip desired an aggressive Spartan rump, boxed in by his invasion, to remain. And, for that matter, why his son decided to leave it that way.

Odd, since a politically useful and militarily threatening counterweight to Macedonian hegemony would see to be somewhat "relevant." First you say that Sparta was never a threat outside its own borders, now she is a boogeyman to keep the rest of Greece in line. In any case, history was to prove that leaving Sparta unconquored was a mistake for Alexander.

Well, for starters, one shouldn’t ascribe to another something that other did not write. If you can point me to where, on this thread, I wrote “Sparta was never a threat outside its own bordersâ€

[PMBardunias]

[quote]Well, for starters, one shouldn’t ascribe to another something that other did not write. If you can point me to where, on this thread, I wrote “Sparta was never a threat outside its own bordersâ€

[Sean Manning]

PMBardunias\\n[quote]
Sean Manning\\n[quote]Hellenistic kings made generous gifts to important poleis, including but not limited to granting them their “freedomâ€

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Those posts are becoming so long and argumentative that it's impossible to follow.

[Paralus]

Now, the Life of Brian is a hell of a film and I can understand you being distracted...

Secret meeting, in Sellasia, of the Popular Poleis Front of the Peloponnesus ...

Reg: "What have the Lacaonians ever done for us?"

To other matters.

... I assume we are done and you accept that your new position is more tenable that you’re old.

I might have passed fifty but I am far from old.

You will please assume nothing. You have, in fact, assumed far too much as it is:

Had you not clouded your argument with your oft-displayed laconophobia, this would be easier to answer. You might understand why I would think you meant that a gelded, two-bit Peloponnesian piss-ant polis would be ineffective on a larger stage.

It was not a difficult question. Perhaps I should have phrased it in simpler language? As it stands you are yet to point me to the claim with which you saddled me. That you will not is eloquent evidence that you cannot; the rest is excuse-making.

I have found in the past that it is useless arguing with zealots. To criticise any Israeli action in the Middle East, for example, immediately renders one an “anti-semiteâ€

[PMBardunias]

But here's the thing: you say that the polis was obsolescent in late -V. I think that the essence of a polis is that it is a compact, self-governing community. Many poleis were still compact, self-governing communities through the Hellenistic age, with kings dealing with them as diplomatic equals and working hard to win their support. Portugal or Ghana don't have much diplomatic clout, and could never challenge US hegemony, but you wouldn't claim that small countries are obsolete today!

Portugal is a good example. By joining the EU it has relinquished a large portion of its sovereignty. Its currency for example and many other decisions must now pass through a greater political body of which it is a permanent member. This mirrors the development of the various leagues in the Greek world. The polis is acting less like an autonomous state and more like a state within a greater nation.

The reason for this today is the same as it was then. In a world of super- and hyper-powers a nation like portugal must band with other states, thus forming the EU, to compete on equal terms. You can still treat directly with portugal, but the actions she can take are severely limited by the EU charter.

Earlier on, a polis might form an alliance with other poleis to war on their neighbors, but a military alliance like this is not the same as a league which forms a larger political entity and requires the that they give up a portion of their own self-government.

All "leagues" were not created equal either. Some of the earliest, the Peloponnesean and Delian for example are not much like the leagues which will later arise, such as the Achean. There is no parity in political power in either the Peloponnesean or the Delian, they are both much more coercive and dominated by their principle parties. The later, more egalitarian leagues at least provided a semblence of power equality between their constituents.

Ghana is an example of a state in need of a meaningful league to join. A functional pan-African league of some sort would go a long way to eliminating the woes of that region and keep the larger powers from taking advantage of them.

Someplace above I mentioned that I was focussed on Greece here, and I should repeat it. In Magna Grecia, states such as Taras and Syracuse were not much changed from their historical state and yet regional powers.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Just a little point about assumptions that it is always wise to bear in mind...

If you assume, you are making an Ass of u and me

:wink:

[PMBardunias]

[quote]It is abundantly clear that to criticise Spartan actions with PMBardunias immediately makes one an “anti-Laconiteâ€