How to portray a Spartan king from the classical era?

[Phalanx300]

See the title,

I was thinking:

A Corinthian with a red transverse plume, with the sides of the plumes falling to the shoulders.
A argive shield with the Royal symbol on it.
A bronze muscled cuirrass.
Red cape.
Red underclothing under the cuirrass, going slightly over the shoulders and under the cuirrass(the small dress effect).
Bronze greaves.
And a Doru and a Spartan sword, or a Xiphos, I don't know which of the last two would be better.
And a pair of sandals I think.

(Though bronze would be brass if I would but it)

Also, I wish to have a full Hoplite armour, in the Spartan king style in the future so thats also a part of why I'm asking this. Also maybe joing a Hoplite group or starting one here in the Netherlands, but for now I must finish school first. :evil:

I already found good accurate looking shields at the Hoplitikon site, though it seems to be taken away.

And at the site of manningimperial I found a good Corinthian, and other brass armour.


Just a big fan of Sparta :twisted: ,

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hi Peter and welcome!
There is no real evidence of the transverse crest belonging only in Kings and generals or oficers,and not even belonging only to Spartans. But if you like it, it is a plausible impression.
Also we should specify that the impression you have in mind is from the archaic and early classical era. That said,a bell cuirass would probably be more frequent,though the muscled one is not ahistorical around and after 450 bc.
A linothorax is another choice if you want.
The underwear should be just a normal chiton.
The samples you saw in the hoplitikon site and in manning imperial are all excellent. If you plan to buy a helmet from manning imperial,bronze in also possible intead of brass.
The laconian sword is usually seen in late 5th century depictions and afterwards. It either didn't exist previously or is not depicted.
Good luck on your imperssion.
Khaire
Giannis

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for your reply,

It will probably take a while though untill I will have my first Hoplite armour piece.

There is no real evidence of the transverse crest belonging only in Kings and generals or oficers,and not even belonging only to Spartans. But if you like it, it is a plausible impression.

Well, I personally think they did, as I kindoff agree with the tranverse plume is high rank theory.

A linothorax is another choice if you want.

I think that I will stick with the cuirrass, I find it to look better, and I think that Spartan kings would wear high quality armour(not saying that Linothorax is of bad quality though).

The laconian sword is usually seen in late 5th century depictions and afterwards. It either didn't exist previously or is not depicted.

Would a Spartan king be earlier carrying a Laconian sword or a Xiphos? I think I might just thick with the Laconian sword.

The samples you saw in the hoplitikon site and in manning imperial are all excellent. If you plan to buy a helmet from manning imperial,bronze in also possible intead of brass.

If bronze is available I might choose that.


But thanks for the reply!

[hoplite14gr]

I have presented evidence of traverse crest belonging to Generals if not the king at the "red cloacks of the Spartans" thread

Xifos means sword in Greek.

A king from 600 B.C to 480 B.C can carry a long straight blade or a copis.

Thr oldest artisic example of a short laconian sword is on a marble relief in Kunsthistorishes Museum Vienna roughly 460 B.C.

The Kings were considered direct descendants of Heracles - mostly considered a solar diety- and the 27-spiral solar symbol from the excavations of the British Archeaological School in Greece (1916) is the better reproduction of the King's shield

Reconstruction example:
http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh84 ... 800007.jpg

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for the reply Stefanos.

I'm more aiming for 500BC to 300BC, something like that, basicly from Thermopylae to the Spartan golden age.

And those are some nice pictures, I believe that they are from the SpartasMoras reenactment group?

My second favorite, or well, my favorite now. I e-mailed Hoplitikon and I got a response that it was disbanded .

Also, about the crest symbols on the Corinthian, was the black-white cubes the most common version at the time? I was thinking of doing triangles probably(red-white, or red-black), don't know if thats Historical though(and I want it to be just that).

Also, one last question. The Spartan bodyguards, I knew they were Olympic winners, and that they fought next to the king and that it was a big unit. But would all the bodyguards be wearing the Bodyguard symbol? Or just the 2 fighting right next to the king?

[hoplite14gr]

Pictures are from the SpartasMoras reenactment group.

Most people think the Spartan kings bodyguards were a big unit because of ambiguous text from Plutrarch's life of Agesilaos.

From Plutarchs Morals we indirectly know that they had to be Olympic champions and they were two probably symbolizing Castor and Polux

We only know that the 300 Spartan hippeis - best hoplites from all morae performed honourguard and they escorted Leonidas at thermopylae.
At 418 B.C they fought as a unit at 1st Mantinea.

Square Boards are mentioned in the "Herakleia tables" and probably are family emblem. We cannot associate it with Agiadae or Eurypontidae households though but they are not unlikely.

Triangles appear on the hearth of Bronze Age Palaces.
They are called "emvola" in the "Herakleia tables" and usually are associated with families able to prove land rights from the Bronze Age.
Again we cannot associate it with Agiadae or Eurypontidae households but they are not ahistorical.

[PMBardunias]

I'm more aiming for 500BC to 300BC

This is far too broad a time interval, a single panoply cannot represent it. I think you want something like 500-450 bc judging from your description.

Transverse crests are actually pretty common on blackware vases, especially if we included the double-crests that emerge like horns from the sides of helmets and meet in the middle.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I also cannot say that it is proven the transverse crest was a sign of oficers or kings just because they apear in one Attic vase of some particular vase. They apear in Ionic and Doric art,in temples worn by Athena or Gorgon. I would need to see an inscriprion on a Laconian sculpture that says "ΒΑSILEY" or something similar,which is very unlikely. Or better one mention in one writer,even of the 1st century bc/ad. But there's nothing like this. Only thing we know,and in fact the one it pointed us to the belief it happened the same with Spartans,that the roman centurions were having transverse crests.
But I repeat,if Peter like a transverse crest,it is perfectly accurate. Just,it doesn't necessarily imply a king.
Khairete
Giannis

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for your replies again guys.

Transverse crests are actually pretty common on blackware vases, especially if we included the double-crests that emerge like horns from the sides of helmets and meet in the middle.

I think that I'm going to stay with the transverse one.

Again we cannot associate it with Agiadae or Eurypontidae households but they are not ahistorical.

Then is there a known symbol for either the house of Agiadae or Eurypontidae?

Most people think the Spartan kings bodyguards were a big unit because of ambiguous text from Plutrarch's life of Agesilaos. From Plutarchs Morals we indirectly know that they had to be Olympic champions and they were two probably symbolizing Castor and Polux

I see, so he would have a big bodyguard unit, but 2 men of the bodyguard unit would probably fight right beside him, wearing the Bodyguard shield emblem?

[hoplite14gr]

Yes Peter 2 bodyguards are more than enough.

Except the kings the leaders of Spartan expeditionary forces had the privilege of bodyguards probally Pythian winners as we deduct from fragments of Xenophon's "Laconian constitution".

Also the Royal stichos (file) in the phalanx would probably be composed from men of the Aigidae clan who carried the snake.
The clan had royal affiliations ans probably a legitimate claim to the throne.

Reconstruction of Thermopylae 1st day for refernce:
http://www.spartan-world.de/sparta.html click hoplites, click heraldry
Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks for your reply Stefanos.

Also I still have a few questions about this picture:

http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... rtapy2.jpg

Below the second Royal guard shield emblem it says: Talthyhadae clan, was that also a clan associated with the Royal familly? Or a important Periokoi clan?

And it also has a 2 new citizens symbols, now what would those be? I doubt that the Spartans would allow non Spartans to become Spartan citizens.

[hoplite14gr]

Talthybiadae are descendants of Tlathybios herald of Agamenon.

According to Strabo Doreans were invited by Achean Philonomos at the "Greek Dark Age". Doreans married into the importantachean families

Also thr Neilidae (Acheans too) descendants of Neleas-father of the homeric Nestor were instrumental in bringing the coastal Messenia in Spartan influence.
Spartan law provided granting citizenship under cirmstances.
It probably became extremely strict after the defeat at Hysiai 670 B.C

As for boar and goose were units made Spartan who settled on the conquered Messenian lands. The citizens homioi did not dwell only in Sparta.


Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks again for the reply.

Talthybiadae are descendants of Tlathybios herald of Agamenon.

According to Strabo Doreans were invited by Achean Philonomos at the "Greek Dark Age". Doreans married into the importantachean families

I see, and becouse of their ancestors they were allowed to wear that symbol, like the snake for the Aigidae clan.

As for boar and goose were units made Spartan who settled on the conquered Messenian lands. The citizens homioi did not dwell only in Sparta.

Don't you mean the Boar and Leopard? And I knew that the Spartiates did not only dwell in Sparta, as they were assigned to different places in Spartan territory, and held land outside of Sparta.

[hoplite14gr]

Well Peter,

You are right. Achean families retained positions even in the Classiacal ere.
Probably because newcomers needed to legitimize their authority or had pacts with them. Except the Neilidae of Pylos (leopard) and Talthybidae (olivewraith) important Achean families were the Melampontidae (sheers-priests 2 snakes) and I research the mysterious Eurikleidae in connection with the temple of Ares at Geronthrae

The "Boar" was last unit formed.

Kind regards

[Phalanx300]

Thanks .

Also, I'm wondering, during which times was the Corinthian with troat guard in use? I must say, it looks quite good. Also was that variant of the Corinthian also in use by the Spartans?

Like seen in this picture:

http://www.legion-fourteen.com/leonidas2.gif