hamata - source

[Anonymous]

I've always accepted that the Romans used the term <em>hamata</em> to describe mail armour, but I can't find this phrase in any of the sources. Can someone point me in the right direction? <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

I think it was something Russell Robinson came up with. <p></p><i></i>

[Matthew Amt]

No, it is supposed to be a Roman term, as I understand, though I don't know the source(s). Robinson only cooked up his helmet and armor typologies, e.g. Imperial-Gallic, Corbridge, etc. And Segmentata is a "modern" term, Victorian or possibly earlier.<br>
<br>
My guess would be to start with Livy or Polybius, the early writers. Pretty sure that it's in there somewhere!<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Searching dictionaries in the web, the word appears only to describe a plant as an English word.<br>
<br>
A Latin dictionary came up with the words hamata, hamatus and hamatum, meaning an adjective word that means hooked. The same dictionary defined lorica as coat of mail, breastwork and fortification. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=johnmmcdermott>JOHN M MCDERMOTT</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photobucket.com/albums/v488/JohnMcDermott/th_DSC00144.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 10/14/04 3:40 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

You've probabaly seen this thread, where the question was discussed earelier this year:<br>
p200.ezboard.com/fromanar...1026.topic<br>
<br>
Ironic, or something, if our earliest reference to "lorica hamata" by name is to that of Goliath, which probably wasn't one.... <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

No I missed that thread. I thought I used the search function before posting but maybe I didn't. Anyway, to continue Peter's thread, according to that site (speedbible.com/vulgate/B09C017.htm#V5) Jerome's Vulgate was written in 405 AD. Is this the only reference to <em>hamata</em> in the sources? I've had a search through Livy, Tacitus, etc but can't find any mention of the word.<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Dan Howard]

Did anyone ever track this down? I can't find any mention of the word hamata in any of the sources either. Varro apparently said that the Romans adopted mail from the Celts. What term does Varro use in the relevant passage? Polybius and Josephus both use the Greek term halusidotos which refers to "little chains". What about Strabo? Didn't he imply that mail was Gallic?

[Tarbicus]

Try this thread for more clues.
link from old RAT

Salvete,<br>
if I remember well, Polybius uses the greek term "alusidotous", meaning, more or less, "ironmail with hooks" (in Latin lorica hamata means: "armour with hooks (rings)"). I don't remember references about a Gallic origin, at least in the book VI.<br>
<br>
Valete omnes.

<p></p><i></i>

[Dan Howard]

No, halusidotous refers to "little chains". hamata is supposed to refer to hooks.

[Tarbicus]

No, halusidotous refers to "little chains". hamata is supposed to refer to hooks.

Could an interpretation of 'ring' be 'hook that is closed'? If linked to a neighbouring ring it is essentially 'hooked' to its neighbour.

[Dan Howard]

It may also refer to the rivets in the links. But Jerome's Vulgate is the only text I know that actually uses the term hamata. I can translate Greek far better than Latin. Could someone take a look at Strabo and Varro to see if they actually use the word "hamata"?

[Tarbicus]

It's Simkins who mentions in Osprey The Roman Army from Caesar to Trojan:

The Roman writer Varro states that the Romans acquired their knowledge of mail-making from the Celtic Gauls, and it was considered that they were its inventors. Whilst there is no evidence to prove or disprove Varro on this point, the Celts were an inventive people with a superb mastery of metal working, perfectly able to achieve such an innovation. But exactly the same can equally well be said of the peoples of the Middle East- the Assyrians made beautiful iron helmets as early as the 8th to 7th centuries BC (see British Museum) and therefore the required technology could very possibly have been developed in that region.

Here's a Polish page that says something like:

About the coat of mail conversion by Romans certify historic sources (in particular Varro, De lingua latina V, 24, 116).

[url:14zdxc40]http://dawneuzbrojenie.republika.pl/cz33.html[/url]

[url:14zdxc40]http://babel.gts-translation.com/geturl?direction=38&input_url=http://dawneuzbrojenie.republika.pl/cz33.html[/url]

[Dan Howard]

I found this here.
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/varro.ll5.html

------------
XXIV.

Arma ab arcendo, quod his arcemus hostem. Parma, quod e medio in omnis partis par. Conum, quod cogitur in cacumen versus. Hasta, quod astans solet ferri. Iaculum, quod ut iaciatur fit. Tragula a traiciendo. Scutum a sectura ut secutum, quod a minute consectis fit tabellis. Umbones a Graeco, quod ambones.

Gladium C in G commutato a clade, quod fit ad hostium cladem gladium; similiter ab omine pilum, qui hostis periret, ut perilum. Lorica, quod e loris de corio crudo pectoralia faciebant; postea subcidit gallica e ferro sub id vocabulum, ex anulis ferrea tunica. Balteum, quod cingulum e corio habebant bullatum, balteum dictum. Ocrea, quod opponebatur ob crus. Galea ab galero, quod multi usi antiqui.

Tubae ab tubis, quos etiam nunc ita appellant tubicines sacrorum. Cornua, quod ea quae nunc sunt ex aere, tunc fiebant bubulo e cornu. Vallum vel quod ea varicare nemo posset vel quod singula ibi extrema bacilla furcillata habent figuram litterae V. Cervi ab similitudine cornuum cervi; item reliqua fere ab similitudine ut vineae, testudo, aries.
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My latin isn't good enough to translate but I can't find any mention of the term "hamata". Where exactly does this text imply that the Celts invented mail?

[Tarbicus]

This might be relevant, but I don't have access to JSTOR.
[url:3pc4p9a6]http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0075-4358%281967%2957%3A1%2F2%3C161%3ATDORMC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B&size=LARGE[/url]

Can't help with the Varro, sorry Dan.

[Dan Howard]

I found this in Pliny the Younger, Letters book 9, letter 30, section 2.
Quos habuit vultus hamati vulnere ferri Caesa caput Gorgon!