Another new Graham Sumner book?

[triarius354]

How mysterious. Care to enlighten us non-book-owners?

note 1007, p.261:

"Parker, 1992, p. 118, fig. 12; the armour is now exhibited in the Archeological Museum of Granada, where, nothwithstanding the dating made possible by the presence of the pottery, it is still classified as a Greek bronze armour of the fourth century BC!"

[Ebusitanus]

That still does not explain away that it is apparently a Cathaginian wreck and not a roman one. The pottery does indeed point out towards the III Century BC but the remains are Punic along with North African Amphorae.

http://www.culturaclasica.com/?q=node/1579

(Sorry its in Spanish)

[olymartin]

Just wanted to thank Messrs D'Amato and Sumner for a terrific new book - what great debates are going to rage over some of the conclussions. My only regret is that, after re-reading the section on body armour for the third time, I am now going to bed for the third night in a row with a sore head as my old 'no leather body armour' brain cells battle it out with the new 'perhaps there was' ones. I am still 'sitting on the fence' a bit over this one, although I have to say that there is no reason why leather could not make armour that is at least reasonably effective. I think that it is often underestimated by many just how difficult it can be to stuff a sword or similar through any sort of material; be it iron, leather or even thick wool. In my days as a modern soldier I remember giving demonstrations on how difficult it can be to stab someone with a bayonet through ordinary combat gear (pre kevlar days, but typically wearing combat jacket, wollen jumper/ fleece, t-shirt - on a dummy I might add); it is not always as easy as the movies make it look. Even if not armour as such, surely the case for a leather 'jerkin' of some sort to protect the wearer's metal armour must be concidered. Most armour wearing soldiers of whatever period of history learn that it pays to keep it in reasonable order - beacause one day it could save your life. It therefore follows that soldiers also generally learn that in order to keep it in servicable condition - if you get it dirty, you have got to clean it, so try not to get it dirty in the first place. A leather 'jerkin' could be worn over the armour in crappy weather to protect it from rain and such, and under the armour in hot weather to help protect it from (what in my experience is armour's worst enemy) sweat. On a lighter note I have to say that my partner will be delighted if the case for leather armour is 'proved'. Instead of her being driven mad by the constant 'tap-tap-tap' of me riviting in the back room there will be long periods of the blisful silence of furious sewing!

[M. Demetrius]

Instead of her being driven mad by the constant 'tap-tap-tap' of me riviting in the back room there will be long periods of the blisful silence of furious sewing!

No, no, there are ways to rivet leather together. You can still drive her mad with tapping. :wink: :lol:

[caiusbeerquitius]

T
-Cavalry sports helmets
D’Amato argues that the concept of a “parade helmet” is a purely 20th century concept and that facemasks were worn in combat, e.g. as shown by the Genialis stele at Cirencester. I was convinced, separate tests on peripheral vision loss with face mask wearers show that it would be practicable, especially in a large mass, with a startling psychological impact on those standing against the rider.

Nothing new, put forth by Junkelmann in detail in the 90ies...

[Condottiero Magno]

Still waiting for Amazon.com to offer A&AotIRS over here...

I've read of leather lamellar and scale armor, but I'm not certain about the practicality of leather lorica segmentata. Even if it were at all practical, how widespread would it be? I don't want the credit the costume designers for Xena and the recent Anthony & Cleopatra TV movie as visionaries. :lol: Next they'll try and convince us that Roman leaders rode into battle on chariots... :roll: To be precise, Anthony jumped off his chariot near Augustus' legionaries then proceeded to fight one on one, with a body count that would put the King of Aquilonia to shame.

Regarding Crispus' leather breeches, not saying such didn't exist, just uncertain about the utility of the style. I assumed the sculptor was either trying to represent a split in the skirt, like on the Bayeaux Tapestry, or the pattern represented padded breeches - the latter less likely than the former.

[Condottiero Magno]

...The intention which moved me to prepare these 6 mega-books was ...

I don't want to break the flow of the discussion, so please forgive me, but aren't they supposed to be 3 books, not 6?

Dear friend,
the original project provided 3 books about Roman classical age 753 BC-565 AD and now are in discussion also other 3 books about the Roman Army in Middle Age (Byzantium)
Considering that for each book I can supply the same amount of inedite images and information the final project will be 6 volumes
Thanks for your interest
Raffaele

Will the Byzantine titles extend to the late 15th Century? I'm interested in Romans of the 1400s and like the two figures in the plate on page 43: the Cretan archer and Constantine XI in The Eastern Romans 330-1461 AD. The books I've seen end the reconstructions of armored Byzantines in the 14th Century.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

While I like the book and in no way want to knock anyones opinions od leather armour, i find myself wondering at how flexible the armour worn on the cover illustration would be for raising the shoulders Graham?
If it is hardened leather, it would really restrict movement..... :?

[Conal]

Started reading my copy .... haven't got into detail yet but I am always disappointed when "blood grove" is used instead of fuller ... this will colour the rest of the book fpor me

[Medicus matt]

"blood grove"

Some sort of woodland sacrificial center? :wink:

Seriously though, I'm with you there, unfortunate choice to say the least. Translation error?

[Conal]

Seriously though, I'm with you there, unfortunate choice to say the least. Translation error?

I hope so.

[Neuraleanus]

My copy was delivered today and I have spend most of the evening going through it. Despite objections to some of the reconstructions, particularly regarding to the use of leather armour, this is an excellent book with many new illustrations of finds that I have not previously seen. Lots of new [to me] roman stuff. I have to disagree with the arguments for the use of leather armour, the evidence just isn't there. The fragment of so-called banded leather armour shown on page 144 from Egypt isn't necessarily military. Did not chariot drivers wear something similar? I also cannot accept the idea of leather edged segmentata. D'Amato borrows too much from sculpture for this. There is no archeological evidence.

Oh, and why did the author include photos of two well known helmet forgeries (pages 114 and 116)? The helmet on page 114 has a very visible welding seam indicating its construction from two pieces.

[Doc]

Lee,

There was a helmet posted here on RAT some time ago that was made from two pieces. I remember Matt Amt was quite surprised to see a two piece helmet where the neckguard appeared to be added on. Unfortunately, I do not have the thread or remember the precise find.

Also evidence for leather armor would be difficult to find since it is Organic and would decompose. However, up to date and at least to my knowledge no Roman musculata has been found and yet people still get reconstructions made of these armors. The Greek linothorax from what I gather has not been found either but it has not stopped anyone from assuming that it did exist based on pottery paintings (I think it has been mentioned in some ancient sources so that may be a plus over the leather). What we do know is that Greek musculata type armors are known and this makes Roman ones plausible. So if the linothorax is acceptable then why is leather armor not? Sometimes it is not evidence but logic that dicatates certain criteria, theory, whatever..........

I do agree with you about the leather edge on the segmentata. The same thing appears in the new Roman clothing book as well. I too am not aware of holes found on the edges of the lames or any other seggie parts that would seem to suggest a leather or other border. I do not think I have even seen it on sculptures. I certainly do not recall seeing it on Trajans column which I saw the cast copies in the museum of Roman Civilization this past summer.

[Neuraleanus]

There was a helmet posted here on RAT some time ago that was made from two pieces. I remember Matt Amt was quite surprised to see a two piece helmet where the neckguard appeared to be added on. Unfortunately, I do not have the thread or remember the precise find.

I remember that thread. The helmet was an Italic A and I believe that the neck guard was riveted on. The helmet bowl was one piece. In contrast, the helmet on page 114 of D'amato's book shows a seam separating the two halves of the helmet bowl. The metal of the seam shows a nice copper color where the artificial aging didn't take.

[Doc]

Yes, it was an Italic A along with the details you mentioned. However, later Roman helmets were made with two halves of the bowl together with something at the center holding them. Of course if the book mentions 1st century, then that another story.