Battle Dog

[Dogote]

I found these pictures while surfing the net



and while i am sharing it with everyone here i also want to ask a few questions.
i always heard the Romans had armoured war dogs.... supposedly thats where the modern day rottweiler came from? anyone know what other breeds (Neapolitan Mastiff is one i think)
Are there any books or websites about roman war/Guard/Gladiator dogs? And has anyone ever included their dog in reenactments, or ever thought about it? (meaning the armour, not necessarily teaching them attack commands.

of course asking the last question i cant stop thinking about the armoured rotties in Conan the Barbarian :lol:
http://www.williamsmith.org/deaddog.html


sorry if this may seem like silly questions but animal history interests me as much as human history

[Aryan Steels]

Of course,a thought provoking question. No one can deny the role of dogs. I am also interested to know whether dogs were used in any roman war or elsewhere or they were used only to augment the status of owner.

Caring,
Suhel

[jonwr]

The second pic is of my friend Jay Henderson's dog Iktomi.
Jay was going to try to build armour for my Scottish Deer hound. But
unfortunately we never got it done.
I often took my SDH to dark age re enactments but never in armour.
Jon R.

[Dogote]

Small world, eh Jon? lol
i actually found that picture from here http://www.gamespot.com/pages/unions/fo ... 520&page=1

havent had much time to explore that website just yet - i was doing Google Image Search..
i also found this site
http://www.pitbullarmory.com/dog-armor.html
i jokingly said to my husband that i want him to build some of these things one of our dogs - just for the silly fun of it, and because he's experienced in body work (for cars mostly but he knows how to bend metal!)
we discussed which would be cheaper, and still safe for the dog to wear, but i think he was a bit relieved when i found the above link - less work for him lol :roll:
this one he said looked like an armadillo

and if any of you are familiar with a bulldog and its tail you'd understand how deadly one can be if it was encased in metal!! dont worry about the dog being aggressive, a happy bulldog with a wagging tail could take your leg off! hock:

as many books as i have on dogs, breeds of dogs, and the little bits of info they have the Romans arent mentioned very often, only with Rottweilers, Mastiffs, and some types of hounds.. i remember a book i borrowed from the library when i was only 7 years old had a brief mentioning of armoured dogs in battles.... i dont remember if it mentioned who used them but the drawing was pretty wild looking of some scruffy mutt wearing insane armour with a giant spiked collar..

[Donciorate]

I have done extensive research on Iron Age dogs mainly in the British Isles, here is a small post from Kelticos about dogs:

"On the matter of dogs many breeds can be traced back to the Celts, for the Celts the breeding of their specialized hunting dogs was considered an art. Some breeds that are connected to the Celts are such breeds as the Irish Wolf Hound which in fact was not originated in Ireland but in England and was first recorded by Romans in 365 A.D. and was called the Lydney dog. Other breeds include the boar hound which was first recorded alongside great dane type dogs on murals and etchings in Egypt around 3000 B.C. but around 100 B.C. large mastiff like dogs were brought to Europe by Asiatic people and the modern great dane and boar hound were created by the Celts in England by crossing the two groups. Also the English foxhound of today is an evolved version of a Celtic hunting dog bred for the Celtic aristocracy who greatly enjoyed hunting deer and boar from horseback accompanied by quick witted and quick footed hounds. And last the now known Scottish deerhound is a cross breed of a deer dog brought south by the Picts and an Irish wolf hound from England so as you can see hunting dogs were very wide spread and varied."


In the case of us Celts our dogs were loyal and faithful companions in hunting and daily life, if you have ever had very loyal dog he will almost follow you anywhere. Although there is no reference to armored dogs in battle, you can imagine a loyal dog would follow his master into battle and would fight to defend him. I could imagine this would be true for Romans aswell, though I would think it would be more prevelent in auxilaries who travel lighter and fight in looser formations. When they get conscripted their family pet may just follow them off on the march.
As for the reference to dogs wearing armor, I would bet that this was not actual armor but an atempt by an owner to protect his faithful companion and defender. If you and a dog had grown up together and you had been companions for many years the dog would become almost family, I can picture soldiers picking up scraps of leather or pieces of broken armor and attaching them together to make sinmple armor to protect their side-kicks from arrows and stray blows.

[Dogote]

Good post, Don.
not unlike today it seems.

i havent read too many articles in archaeology about dogs, especially ones in battle. in fact the only article i have read was a small mentioning of a body discovered embracing a dog. i want to say he was Roman, but no idea if he was a soldier or citizen. i dont know if i could even find that article again.

i'm still interested and am going to keep looking for more info, i'd like to see if there has been any canine armour found in dig sites. we know that knights protected their horses in such a way, maybe dogs too?

[fasta]

Not proof of a war dog but it reflects the thoughts of the posts so far.

Three skeletal remains were found amongst the ruins of the Goldsborough Signal Station tower on the Yorkshire coast in 1932 by Hornsby & Laverick. A short, thick-set man lay face down across the open hearth perhaps attacked from behind.

A second taller man lay at the first mans feet also face down but on top of a large powerful dog. Its paws on the mans shoulders and its head at his throat. Was the dog defending its home to the last taking the attacker with it into the afterlife?

[jonwr]

Gin
I think there are some more pics of Iktomi on Jay's web site.
Jays not a bad potter either
Not sure as to war dogs but I always like a large hunting hound along side.
Especially at events. They do seem to draw the crowd and get the questions flowing.
http://artifacts.brigandsfolie.com/
Jon R.

[Dogote]

thanks for the link!

doing some more google searching and i actually found an old discussion from this forum about War Dogs in a game (Total War) http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

it seems theres a lot of mentioning about "battle dogs" but no physical proof of any kind of body protection - though if it was leather it might not have survived the centuries -

i cant see dogs being used as a single unit without a lot of time and training. i'm sure it could be done in a small group? but .... lol i own American Bulldogs... sure they get along great with each other most of the time, but when they're in a frenzy over something they have been known to bite the dog standing next to them out of frustration! not to pick a fight, but pure and simple frustration... and depending on the mood of the other dog.. he may or may not bite back. too risky, yes?

I cant remember where i read it, maybe in an AKC book, or some other dog book, but it mentions dogs being trained to attack horses, biting them on the nose to bring them down. now THAT could be a good possibility. I would think all that would be required on the handlers part would be to slip the dog into an enemy cavalry charge. Dogs are fairly easy to train, breed and grow quickly, and aim to please. I dont think it would be a major loss if someone lost a dog or two in a battle.
similar too, but less destructive as the Soviet anti-tank dogs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog

though i can see the same problems occurring with dogs trained to attack horses.... whats stopping them from going after your own?

i guess the most likely use of a dog in battle would have been scenting traps, enemies, intruders, moral support as well as a personal guardian?