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What the description of Sphacteria has to tell us
#16
Quote: 2. The strong legend of Spartan invincibility:Even with their huge advantage in numbers, the Athenians acted cautiously, the Hoplites merely holding their ground while the light troops, broken up into companies of approximately 200, attacked with missiles from all sides. This timid behaviour tells us that the Spartan legend of invincibility was alive and well. ( or perhaps we should put this down to good tactics on Kleon and Demosthenes part?)

The later. Thucydides makes it plain that Demosthenes’ plan was to attack with the “light armedâ€
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#17
It is possible that some soldiers fought in felt caps. Even if not all of them but a high percentage of the men in Sphacteria were fighting in felt piloi this would be enough for Thucydides to say their helmets didn't protect them from arrows.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to find and post here the sculpture I had in mind but you can go in Osprey The Greek Hoplite p58(and then see plate F). This hoplite is typically and fully armed. He has a shield,a sword and a spear. And a helmet. Only it is squeezed by his fingers. Interestingly it is from Megara and dates to 420-410bc.
Another vase with the exact same kit for a soldier
[Image: pilos01.jpg]
These two soldiers are wearing piloi that could be soft. They're not completely cymetrical...
[Image: DSC01717.jpg]
Additionally,though it's early and this is not a pilos,it is however a charging hoplite in full kit but a soft (phrygian) cap(thanks to Paul B for the photo)
[Image: P1280302-1.jpg]

One thing I would like to point out is the Spartans didn indeed act like their ancestors in one sence. Thucydides says that even after the Messenians came from the rear and as he characteristicly says "to compare the small with the big" they were in the same position as in Thermopylae, they were in very difficult situation,but they didn't break. He says that Demosthenes and Kleon realized that if the Spartans were pushed even slightly back,they would be totally masacred. So they called back their troops because they wanted to take the survivors captives. It was then and after a Keryx was sent that the Spartans let down their shields and some of them waved their hands. But even then,they didn't surrender. They asked orders from their generals in land. Their own generals were dead or among the dead. Only the third in command was alive. It is indicated that if they were ordered to fight,they would do it. It is unfair to compare them,even today, to those in Thermopylae,who fought under the command of a king.
Also the answer they got is most interesting. They were actually ordered not to die. Otherwise they would have said "do what the Sparta's laws say"(which means fight to death and not retreat). Instead,they were asked not to do something shamefull. Obviously even at that time the "Spartan mirage" was so strong that Sparta could still not order a surrender.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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#18
If you face a hail of missiles the chance of being wounded in your unprotected parts of your head are more even if you wear a metallic pilos.
The chances are less with "chalcidic" or corinthian
The Atheninas expected the masses salvoes of missles todo the trick rather than accuracy. The Spartans could not advanced quickly enough because of the condition to root the Athenian hoplites and then finish off the rubble.

If you are an Athenian the idea is to stave them off as much as possible and let the time work for you. We say in Greek "I diarkeia troei ton pekti" = the duration "eats" the player an it was proven correct in Sphacteria.

Kind regards
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#19
Big Grin Never got carried away, Paul... I doubt that all hoplites wore helmets, but not that Spartans did--just a few lines before, Thuc. notes them as being "well equipped."

Quote:Thirdly, lexicons are not 'gospel' - most were written a hundred years ago, and meanings are often no more than educated guesses, often wrong..... e.g. many still define 'longche' as 'pike!
Defining Thucydides use of the word as 'felt cuirass or jerkin' is another example - a wild guess, and obviously just plain wrong! "[something] couldn't keep out missiles; and when javelins hit their bodies the shafts broke off in their armour" - associate the two parts and you can see how the guess arose. Rolling Eyes

Fourthly, only a tiny fragment of literature survives....certainly not enough that a mere 34 references to piloi, the vast majority being references to the far more common cap, is in any way statistically significant to the use of bronze piloi as helmets !!

That said, though, while individual translators may have made errors, in general the late 19th c. Grecians were head and shoulders above today's best efforts, and it'd be odd to ignore what they have to say--especially for folks who don't read Greek. And while again, I agree that 34 refs is a small sample, it's not all that small, and it is always worthwhile to examine the linguistic evidence FIRST before going on to theory building. A better critique, and one I was going to post later, is that Josephus (just for example) seems to use Greek about as effectively as I do--so when he uses "Pilos" for the High Priest's crown, you have to be a little suspicious of the state of HIS lexicon--and that means that many of the other late classical sources may be equally biased.

An old professor of mine used to say "You can always debate the validity of sources--but you should never use that as an argument for not READING the sources." Smile

Back to building Lorica's aspis. the first linen layer is on the face and her porpax is installed.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#20
Giannis wrote:
Quote:They were actually ordered not to die. Otherwise they would have said "do what the Sparta's laws say"(which means fight to death and not retreat). Instead,they were asked not to do something shamefull. Obviously even at that time the "Spartan mirage" was so strong that Sparta could still not order a surrender.
I don't think one can say they were ordered not to die. It seems to me that they were given a typical laconic ambiguous order.....
"The Spartans order you to make your own decision about yourselves, so long as you do nothing dishonourable/shameful" ......and to Spartans of the old Lycurgan school, surrender would be seen as 'dishonourable/shameful'. The surprising thing here is that they were given the option of deciding themselves, and that when they did choose capitulation, they were not particularly shamed or shunned for it on their return home.
Another example of how the rest of Greece thought of Sparta as 'conservative' when in fact Spartan atitudes had evolved considerably....

Also, apart from the black figure in phrygian hat, I don't think the other two examples are meant to be felt/soft/dogskin piloi...they are shown smooth for a start, and the disc/bolt on the first example is surely an indicator of a metal fastening/rivet for the chinstrap. Depictions of soft caps are often hairy/shaggy and don't have chinstraps....

In the second case, any assymetry is minimal, and probably simply the artist working free-hand. Besides, assymetry is no indicator...nor are what appear to be 'folds' .... surviving petasos and boeotian metal examples reproduce folded and even creased brims, and what about the 'assymetric' floppy appearance of phrygian helmets?
The Greeks, it appears, were fond of reproducing 'realistically' in a bronze helmet version, almost every kind of cap/hat !! :lol:

Kineas wrote:
Quote:I doubt that all hoplites wore helmets
....this a little surprising since, IIRC, you have written or implied that re-enactment practice revealed that for a Hoplite to fight helmetless was suicidal....

Quote:in general the late 19th c. Grecians were head and shoulders above today's best efforts, and it'd be odd to ignore what they have to say
Certainly the late 19C was the heyday of Classical studies by some very learned scholars ( to this day, I am in awe of the huge volumes of T.Rice-Holmes works on Caesar's writings, many times more than Caear himself wrote !!), and much of it is still valuable....but equally much is now outmoded/superceded by 20C archaeology for example, and in a few cases the coming-to-light of new texts ( e.g. the various Oxyrhyncus papers) which shed more information on various subjects.
As to Josephus use of 'pilosi' for the High Priest's conical headgear ( there are depictions of this, IIRC), I'd say that is a fair translation into greek/use of a greek word, and certainly far more correct than 'felt cuirass'!!
My philosophy is similar to your professor's, coloured by my legal background:
One should gather all available sources(evidence), but then;
" Evidence is weighed, not counted"
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#21
Quote:....this a little surprising since, IIRC, you have written or implied that re-enactment practice revealed that for a Hoplite to fight helmetless was suicidal....

Absolutely true. but one thing I haven't seen so far out of any Greek source (even a Spartan one) is a list of required arms. Odd, because far less advanced societies (Anglo Saxon England comes to mind) had absolute requirements on what arms a man had to bring to the muster. Perhaps the Greeks had them.

I don't know--I'm just not convinced that every ten-acre farmer in a Boeotian Polis (or an Italian one) could afford a helmet. Or, if he could afford one, chose to show up with one...
Generals were responsible for choosing where each man would stand... someone had to be in the seventh rank...

Smile
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
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#22
Paralus wrote:
[quote]Paullus Scipio wrote:
2. The strong legend of Spartan invincibility:Even with their huge advantage in numbers, the Athenians acted cautiously, the Hoplites merely holding their ground while the light troops, broken up into companies of approximately 200, attacked with missiles from all sides. This timid behaviour tells us that the Spartan legend of invincibility was alive and well. ( or perhaps we should put this down to good tactics on Kleon and Demosthenes part?)


The latter. Thucydides makes it plain that Demosthenes’ plan was to attack with the “light armedâ€
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#23
Paul,I'm surprized how you try to say that this helmet must have been bronze
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... ilos01.jpg
and even more because you didn't comment on the Sculpture shown on the Osprey book. Together with the older black figure vase,I have shown you three cases where hoplites are shown in "full hoplite gear" but with a soft pilos.
And finally what is yout thesis.That there were no hoplites that fought in felt piloi? And that all of them wore identical mass made bronze piloi? And that the felt piloi shown in art were sun hats?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#24
Giannis wrote:
Quote:Paul,I'm surprized how you try to say that this helmet must have been bronze ....I didn't say "must", just that to me there are clues in this depiction that point to a bronze helmet being shown....but since it is a rather simplified flat drawing, not a photo, the beholder may conclude whatever they wish about what this simple drawing shows...the eye may see a 'folded' cap as in the sculpture, or an attempt to show a '3-D' rigid-rimmed helmet....

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... ilos01.jpg

and even more because you didn't comment on the Sculpture shown on the Osprey book. ....the sculpture clearly shows a soft cap, I would agree - as to what it is, see post...
Together with the older black figure vase,I have shown you three cases where hoplites are shown in "full hoplite gear" but with a soft pilos.
...Three? Sorry, but I count only one where a soft pilos/cap is clearly shown - the sculpture. The Athenians shaking hands could be either, but again the smooth texture suggests metal rather than rough felt or dogskin, which Greek artists were readily able to depict if they chose....and the third (the black-figure) is someone wearing a phrygian cap, not a 'pilos', and who may not even be a Hoplite.......if you are going to look at soft headgear generally, then you might as well include Patroclus' skull-cap, in the famous red-figure depiction of Achilles binding the wounds of Patroclus...which brings me to my point, namely that the few depictions we have of 'soft' headgear probably show helmet-liners...after all, even down to modern times soldiers only wear hot,heavy helmets when in danger, it is the first item removed, and thus soldiers are depicted as they frequently appeared - helmetless. Significantly, there are no depictions of troops wearing definite soft head-gear in battle scenes that I can recall......
And finally what is yout thesis.That there were no hoplites that fought in felt piloi?
I don't believe that the soft felt/dogskin caps called 'piloi' were ever worn as head protection in battle by Greek Hoplites, and that Thucydides reference is far more likely ( N.B. not must) to be a reference to bronze 'piloi' helmets...not least because a 'pilos' cap would be no 'protection' at all.
And that all of them wore identical mass made bronze piloi? ...No, I think that other more expensive styles were around, and that the wealthier Hoplites probably wore these, but that bronze 'piloi' were probably very common, possibly the most common...
And that the felt piloi shown in art were sun hats?
...No, not sun-hats, rather helmet-liners, possibly worn under bronze 'piloi'.As Kineas has found by experiment, Hoplite warfare without some serious head-protection is suicidal.
The Caveat I have, as referred to earlier, is the known ( in contemporary Spain) use of Leather/Hide helmets, the possible use of the same in Macedonia, and the Latin word 'Galea' for helmets of leather.

The only reason to even consider that Thucydides might mean 'felt' is purely the origin and etymology of the word itself ...which is like future historians deciding that references to 'Tanks' in World War 1 history is a reference to 'large water containers' ...or that the 'cannon' referred to in the Iraq wars are 'smooth-bored gunpowder weapons' !!

I repeat that I believe that, on balance of probability, Thucydides is referring to bronze 'piloi'.

Khaire
Giannis
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#25
Fair enough,we disagree in some points,but just have in mind that "pilos" is not something that defines shape. It means felt or felt cap and not a specific head wear that can be either bronze,felt or dogskin. This is just modern convension that this particular helmet has to be called pilos. And because once in Lysistrata it is mentioned a "pilos xalkous", ab bronze pilos, we supposed that it had to be this one. In fact supporting that a felt cap cannot be of any protection is the same as saying that some layers of linen cannot protect either,although they have been used as armour for centuries.
I also believe there was a large number of bronze piloi,as well as other-mostly chalkidean-helmets. But IF for SOME reason among those Spartans there was a decent number who wore soft protective hats,this would be enough for Thucydides to say that their helmets(obviously not talking for all of them in any way) were not very good against arrows.
Remember there were well equiped and less well equiped armies,often from the same city. There were hundrets of instances where an Athenian army was gathered to fight. But only for the first one who prepared for Syracuse does Thuc mention how brilliantly each and every soldier was equiped. This implies that other Athenian armies were not so brilliantly equiped. Similarly, a spartan garisson in an uninhabited island with no great significance to them may not have been so well equiped for phalanx fighting.
I suppose the base of our disagreement is that I believe felt caps were some times used as a helmet and that those ones depicted are not just helmet liners,and you believe the oposite.
As for the artists having to depict soft matterials differently,this is crearly not valid either. I can point you to at least one sculpture from Aphaia in Aegina,where there's a helmet lining depicted under the raised helmet,and it's smoothe like any other metal surface
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#26
Why can't 'pilos' mean 'a garment made of felt, meant to protect a part the body', be it helmet and cuirass from weapons and missiles, shoes from harsh ground, or even a rug from harsh ground?

In latin 'furca' means 'a forked thing meant to carry something', be it kit on the march or a person during a crucifixion.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#27
Quote:There were hundrets of instances where an Athenian army was gathered to fight. But only for the first one who prepared for Syracuse does Thuc mention how brilliantly each and every soldier was equiped. This implies that other Athenian armies were not so brilliantly equiped.

I think you underestimate the art of Thucydides Giannis. It does not, to my reading anyway, imply that other Athenian armies were equipped poorer. Thucydides is launching his description of the greatest Hellenic action in his memory. Chapters six and seven will be his literary “Sicilianâ€
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#28
Quote:Thucydides was not stating that only this Athenian army was fully armoured as compared to others
Is this what you think i said? I said-and Thuc is very clear in this, that this was the most brilliant army among other reasons and because every soldier did his best to have good armour and to show off to their own friends. The same with how brilliantly the ships were decorated etc etc. Similarly I think it was Agesilaus' army as described by Xenophon that was incredibly well equiped. Soldiers from the most wealthy city of the time could produce an incredibly armed army,the same with the ritch army of Agesilaus.
Sphacteria was not of that great significance as until then the Spartans had to face a tiny Athenian force. What followed was rather unexpected by them. In the island there were marely paths and all of it was covered by thick forest. I would say that the fact they sent hoplites and not other lighter troops was just because this is the only way they could send Spartans,whom they could trust.
In all I find it very plausible that the soldiers sent there were not of the best equiped type.
Tarbicus,"pilos" or "pilema" can mean anything felt but when they are specified. For example you could say "a jerkin made of pilos/pilema". But when pilos is used alone,it just means a felt hat(of whatever shape).
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#29
Quote:
Quote:Thucydides was not stating that only this Athenian army was fully armoured as compared to others

Is this what you think i said? I said-and Thuc is very clear in this, that this was the most brilliant army among other reasons and because every soldier did his best to have good armour and to show off to their own friends.

In a word, yes. This because you prefaced the words of Thucydides with a qualifier about how well equipped armies might be. In context:

Quote: Remember there were well equiped and less well equiped armies,often from the same city. There were hundrets of instances where an Athenian army was gathered to fight. But only for the first one who prepared for Syracuse does Thuc mention how brilliantly each and every soldier was equiped.

The clear implication, to me at any rate, being that other Athenenian armies were less well equipped than this one. The fact that one’s aspis cover or cuirass was more decorated or polished than another does make one “better equippedâ€
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#30
That "better and most brilliantly epuiped" means better polished and more painted is just your own assumption. That even the ships were just more decorated is again false,as we know a vast number of ships were actually built exactly for the purpose of this expedition. And not only once Thuc mentions that this was a great army in all levels,but he puts it several times in the mouth of the generals. Even after their loss Nikias urges his men to look around them and see for themselves how brilliant an army they still are. Sure he doesn't mean they were well polished or colourful painted! Nor is he speaking just for numbers as even then they were not the greatest army that had been gathered. He's talking about the quality of troups and equipment.
In Sphacteria there was no garisson until the Spartan army arrived,but when the Spartan army arrived there was only a small Athenian garisson in the oposite land. How well and how soon the Spartans knew about the Athenian fleet ariving is another matter,for in their every esteem they were wrong and the whole day was a fiasco.
Once again you misquoting me when you suppose I said I believe the Spartans in Sphacteria were chosen from the lesser armoured men. But myself I would think twice before taking my good old expensive helmet or my well polished bell quirass that I keep from my great grand father,in that island to garisson in just for a wile,especially when I would have to prevent ships to disembarg,and I would have to be by the salty sea all the time.
Have you been in Sphacteria? If not,see the place in Google Earth and use the various photos there to have a vision of what kind of place we're talking about. Imagine first what place was that,where only 60 ment could prevent the entire Spartan fleet to disembarg,and then see the place and judge for yourself if heavily armoured men can do the job in that terrain. The terrain of Spacteria is the same as that where Brasidas tried to reach,especially from the outer coast of the island,where the Athenias would probaly reach.
Yet,still those men had a hoplite shield,many of them had heavy helmets and few may have had cuirasses. They were forming a phalanx and fought in this formation when facing an infantry enemy. This alone makes them "heavy" as they are hoplites. A hoplite always is called "heavy" when compared to psiloi or unarmed/ored rowers who throw rocks,no matter if some of them wore felt helmets.
Now I would suggest abandoning that method of quoting separate phrases,as it only adds to the argumentativity and I have witnessed it many times leading to unbearable "discussions", that no one can follow,like your last one with Paul B.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
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