What the description of Sphacteria has to tell us

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Another one that I'm not saying has to be felt,but it could be soft.
And another interesting one.

Not a hoplite,but give him a shield and he becomes one. Not to mention that only hoplites and hippeis could afford grave stones. Helmet lining? Perhaps.
Khairete
Giannis

[Paralus]

Once again you misquoting me when you suppose I said I believe the Spartans in Sphacteria were chosen from the lesser armoured men.

Giannis, I have not misquoted you; if I have misread your meaning then my apologies. I had thought that you’d implied they were selected for this job as they were less heavily armoured.

Now I would suggest abandoning that method of quoting separate phrases,as it only adds to the argumentativity and I have witnessed it many times leading to unbearable "discussions", that no one can follow,like your last one with Paul B.

You have made several points. By and large I have agreed with you and have watched the thread progress. That does not mean that I cannot disagree with one or more propositions or points: you yourself do so with Paullus – and he with you – yet this is not being “argumentativeâ€

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Hi Parallus.
First,no of course I don't have a problem with disagreements,after all,this is what I mainly happen to do in this great forum. This multiple misunderstandings of what I said,which often happens to me,too, made me a little ill-tempered in my previous post. Sorry for any offenciveness.
However,do look up for Sphacteria in Google Earth if you have it installed. It'll give you a nice idea of what kind of place we're talking about. And try find some photos on the net(if you haven't already).It's a rocky harsh coast all the way round the outer pasrt of the island. Even today there's only a path on the island!
Khaire
Giannis

[Paralus]

Sorry for any offenciveness.
However,do look up for Sphacteria in Google Earth if you have it installed. It'll give you a nice idea of what kind of place we're talking about. And try find some photos on the net(if you haven't already).It's a rocky harsh coast all the way round the outer pasrt of the island. Even today there's only a path on the island!

I wasn't offended Giannis - just a little perplexed. I would, though, enjoy hearing from any others on Thucydides' treatment of the Sicilian expedition. Perhaps another thread. I find this section of his work fascinating.

I looked up Sphacteria - as you suggested. Not terribly hospitable. It was different in ancient times (water levels and amount of siltation in the bay etc) though. I noticed the one path.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus wrote:
[quote]Giannis K. Hoplite wrote:
Similarly, a spartan garisson in an uninhabited island with no great significance to them may not have been so well equiped for phalanx fighting.


I think this is wrong. Sphacteria was quite important to them: the Spartans, choosing by lot, garrisoned it for that very purpose – when they arrived. The Spartan plan was to block the harbour entrances at both ends of Sphacteria and “since they feared the enemy might occupy the island and make use of it against them, they carried some hoplites across to itâ€

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote:

It'll give you a nice idea of what kind of place we're talking about. And try find some photos on the net(if you haven't already).It's a rocky harsh coast all the way round the outer pasrt of the island. Even today there's only a path on the island!

Paralus wrote:

Not terribly hospitable. It was different in ancient times (water levels and amount of siltation in the bay etc) though. I noticed the one path.

Thuc (IV.29)

....He (Demosthenes)had been much encouraged by a fire which had taken place in the island. It had previously been nearly covered with a wood and was pathless, having never been inhabited; and he had feared that the nature of the country would give the enemy an advantage. For, however large the force with which he landed, the Lacedaemonians might attack him from some place of ambush and do him much injury. Their mistakes and the character of their forces would be concealed by the wood;....

Clearly, apart from the path/track and the odd building little has changed....RAT member Dan Diffendale's photos on Google Earth are very useful.... the island is only 500 metres or so wide at it's narrowest point.

[Kineas]

Back to the original topic--and I don't mean felt hats...

What I really want to know about Sphacteria is why the Spartans didn't close. Sounds to me like they advanced up close to the Athenian hoplites but DIDN'T cross the last gap. Interesting... Did the Athenian Psiloi hold fire until the Spartans stopped moving forward? Was there some very gradual effect from the missile fire that wasn't revealed until the Spartans nearly came to grips?
There's a great (and well-documented) story from the 7 Year's War in Europe--George Hangar, an Englishman, is serving with the Hesse Hanau Jaeger corps. He's firing from 600 yards at a formed body of French Grenadiers. He and his fellow jaegers fire at them for an HOUR. The Grenadiers hold their ground, but when they are ordered to advance--suddenly they break, because only in the process of marching did they discover how many casualties they'd taken. Especially at open ranks, this effect I've actually witnessed. It just doesn't look that bad until you close up. only then to the gaping holes appear. Wonder if those Spartans marched right up, went to close their ranks, and discovered that they had some holes? So they covered themselves and retreated?

Just speculation, based on what I see in Thuc. and little later history...

[Paullus Scipio]

I think you may well be on to something with this idea ! If what we know about Spartan drill is correct, in open/normal order they would usually form up on a front of 30 x 12, which would give a front of 60 yards x 12 ranks deep - but this would be a very narrow front, and doesn't sound right....but the Athenian phalanx, if a typical formation was adopted 8 deep, would be on a front of 200 yards (800 Hoplites 8 deep, 6 feet per man frontage).

My hunch is that the Spartan would have halved their depth to match, and so be on a front of at least 120 yards still in open order, and perhaps hope to leave the Athenian left flank 'hanging in the air' at contact - 60 man front x 6 ranks deep in open order, a front of at least 120 yards. We know that the terrain was burnt out scrub, that the Spartans couldn't even block the narrowest part of the island (500 metres), and so were exposed to fire from both flanks (Thuc IV.34) and that visibility was poor, ( so undoubtedly one end of the line - whether 60 or 120 yards - was not visible to the other), not just because of the burnt out scrub but because " great clouds of dust rose from the ashes....it became impossible to see in front of one" (Thuc IV.34).

The skirmishing went on "for some time".

" Finally, after many of them had been wounded, penned in as they were and unable to move freely, they closed ranks and fell back to the fort..."
Suppose they moved to close order, 120 yards long or more in the burnt scrub but only 3 deep, and then realised their line had ragged holes where maybe whole files of three were missing - at that point, like the french grenadiers, they realise the extent of their losses and that they are too weak to attack ( and should still be between 50 and 100 yards from the motionless Athenian line, under constant fire from front and both flanks)....and at that critical point their morale gives way, or their commander realises the futility of continuing to attack ( after all, as the charge went in the flanking psiloi and peltasts must inevitably find themselves in the Spartan rear, and act accordingly )

All pretty plausible... considering that 148 from 440 Hoplites were killed (over one-third!) and almost all these will have become wounded/killed in the open skirmishing " for some time" and the subsequent retreat to the fort....
A laus for your perspicacious insight ! D

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The Spartans in their charges were not aiming the Athenian line. The pursued the peltasts,obviously thinking that if they engaged the Athenian hoplites without routing the peltasts they would emediately be completely surrounded. The Athenians would have been on a higher ground in a great defensive position. The Spartans failed in their first task to defeat the lightly armed,not to reach the Athenian hoplites. This would have been their second task.
Of course what Kineas suggested is plausible. Thucydides has mentioned such cases where one of the oponents realize their disorder or casualties and retreat. Speaking about casualties,only in formation did the Athenians realize the amount of missing men after the naval battle of Arginousae and were panicked. I personally don't believe this is why the Spartans retreated. They actually charged and retreated many times,and Thucydides is clear when he says that not only they suffered casualties but were also utterly exausted. Retreat was a decission that should have been taken earlier...
Khairete
Giannis

[Kineas]

Giannis--exhaustion and casualties are actually related--just because they were Spartans doesn't mean they were without fear.

Thuc. 4.33/1 "Meanwhile the main body of troops (that under Epitadas) seeing their outpost cut off and an army advancing to against them, serried their ranks and pressed forward to close with the Athenian Hoplites, the light troops being on their flanks and rear."

If you would look at this again, Giannis, i think you'll see that my contention has a little more value than you give credit. Like any HOPLITE, Epitadas went forward to fight the enemy HOPLITES, and virtually ignored the peltasts. I think that this is as important a point as any other. This is a period where the use of Peltasts and psiloi and archers as serious battlefield troops is in its infancy (at least in Greece). Epitadas went forward witht he assumption--often an accurate one--that if he could get his hoplites into combat with the AThenian hoplites, he could still win.
4.34 shows how this combat worked. the Spartans aren't "fighting" the peltasts, but are simply launching their younger men to pursue them while keeping the phalanx intact and possibly even on the move--but as in later conflicts, their sprinters get tired (4.34 later first sentence) and the Psiloi grow more confident.
The confidence of the Psiloi, in turn, allows them to come forward more boldly and in greater numbers, so that they throw more missiles...

But the question I asked above, and sought to answer, was "why did the Spartans stop moving int he first place?" Long before they retreated, they stopped their advance to attempt to contact the Athenian Hoplites.

Hey--I may not convince you, but I just wanted to re-state my argument.

[Paralus]

Giannis--exhaustion and casualties are actually related--just because they were Spartans doesn't mean they were without fear.

Clearly correct.

Like any HOPLITE, Epitadas went forward to fight the enemy HOPLITES, and virtually ignored the peltasts. I think that this is as important a point as any other. This is a period where the use of Peltasts and psiloi and archers as serious battlefield troops is in its infancy (at least in Greece).

I think Kineas correct. The language suggests that it was the Athenian hoplites that the Spartans were interested in. This is expected as it is a function of the times. As Kineas says, the planned tactical use of light armed was not a major factor in Greek warfare. It is remarked upon when it is – such as Iphictrates thirty or more years later.

If one reads the description of this struggle – particularly the mounting of the second force at Athens under Cleon – we can see that it is Demosthenes that Thucydides actually slights or dismisses. Thucydides’ description of the entire operation would have it that its success was entirely down to luck. Clues exist, though, that Demosthenes had planned this from the outset. He clearly always intended to use light armed troops (4.34.4) and these troops had already been recruited for him in Athens. When foisted “the commandâ€

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I think the description by Thucydides is very clear and here is how he puts things:
The Athenians had captured the higher spots of the island(except for the highest North cliff that looked in Pylos). This way,whenevere the Spartans would turn to attack one group of psiloi,there would always be other groups of psiloi behind them and to their flanks. However,when Epitadas and his men saw the Athenian hoplites they emediately tried to come to hands with them. Before contact they realized that if they ingaged in battle they would be surrounded by the psiloi.So they stoped. And again he's clear. For he says that whenever a group of psiloi came too close to the Spartans,they managed to route them,but because of the broken ground and the fact that the Spartans "hopla exondes" (were armed. He doesn't say that they were heavily armed or not.But he means that the crouds didn't have arms/armour.Logical as he previously informs us that most of them were rowers and armed with whatever each could find) they couldn't reach them,and when the Spatans retreated,they attacked them again with missiles. Again he's clear when he says that the light armed troops,when they saw that the Spartans were slower in their charges,they attacked them all together)and not in groups of about 200),shouting and screaming and throwing arrows,stoned and whatever everyone had. Once again Thucydides says it all: The screams caused fear and disorder to the Spartans,men unused to such kind of battle.
To sum up and try to respond again on Kineas' question: Thucydides says the Spartans only once,at first,tried to attack the Athenian hoplites. Before contact they stopped because they were being attacked from all directios by small groups of psiloi. Thet realized that it would be suicide to engage the Athenian phalanx being surrounded like that. In fact some groups came very close to the Spartans and each time the Spartans pursued them. But because armed men were trying to reach unarmed light troups,they were exausted. At this moment no casualties are mentioned. Only when they became too slow did all the psiloi(no hoplites yet) attack them together,producing great noise and clouds of dust,and a Hell of missiles of all kind. And when,as he characteristically says they were even more exausted by "running around all the time" and here is where they suffer many casualties,because they are closely surrounded,and they form close formation to protect themselves from the missiles and retreat to their last "fort" on the cliff. At this account Thucydides doesn't mention the younger hoplites being the only ones who ran. But he does say that they were figting all that time in open order.
So I hope the description itself answered your original question Kineas.
As for Thucydides not giving credit to Demosthenes' plan,rather than luck,I disagree. Just after the Athenians disembarged and killed the first 30 spartan hoplites in the South garisson of the island,and the psiloi were occupying all the high grounds so that the Spartans would always be surrounded he says "with such thoughts Demosthenes was at first planning the disembarg and he now put it in action" In fact he presumes what will come and at the end of paragraph 32 he gives credit for all this to Demosthenes' plans and successful action.
Khairete
Giannis

[Kineas]

Well, I'll forgo further argument. In the spring, I'll go there, and post pictures!

Sounds very "reenact-able" though.

[Kineas]

Oh--Another Sphacteria related thing I've learned from Giannis starting this thread. It looks to me as if poppy seeds and/or flax seed in honey, stored in a sausage casing (that's my take on the Greek--happy to be corrected) is a period-correct "emergency ration." Sounds quite edible, and something that I'd be happy to carry and eat.

And a nice change from cheese and onions...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

You mean in spring you'll be here??? I think we'll need to burn the forest in order to re-enact it correct hock:
The island is higher in ther South and North end and is lower near the center,where is also a bit narrower. The first garisson of 30 hoplites who were emediately killed where on the south. Theywere cought on sleep. In the North the island is much higher and offers a great defensive position. The Spartans believe it was invincible,but it wasn't so because it they had left it completely unprotected,also being busy with the other battles. The surround took place in the center of the isliand where the island is more flat. This is where the Spartans were camped. The psiloi were in all the high spots around.
Khaire
Giannis

PS.hmm,you'll have to wait other greeks to reply to your food question