Login

Mithras · 10-10-2004, 06:28 PM

Why? 
 
I see very limited evidence of these being used as spears. They were throw-away weapons. Why did they have spiked butts on them? Especially when you are going to charge into the area where plenty may be sticking out of the ground with the ferrules pointed at your chest like some awesome anti-infantry trap. 
 
Any ideas?

Felix · 10-11-2004, 01:46 PM

I think that it is unlikely that large numbers of pila would be sticking out of the ground like an abatis or other anti-infantry device. I would expect a number of the pila to be somewhat crumpled, with the long iron shaft bent under the impact of hitting a target. Of course, most of the pila were supposed to be sticking into enemy warriors or shields, and not in the ground. The number of pila hurled would not be that great, as compared with arrows shot off by archers. The pilum is a short-range weapon, after all, so there wasn't time to hurl large numbers of them. The supply was also relatively limited, compared with the numbers of arrows an archer typically had access to. 
 
It may be that the main purpose of the butt-spike was practical - to protect the end of the pilum.

Matthew Amt · 10-11-2004, 05:41 PM

Because every evening on the march, you'll be stacking your equipment and digging the ditch. As Trajan's Column shows it, that means sticking the pilum butts into the ground, leaning the shield against them, and hanging the helmet from the pilum shaft over the shield. So the buttspikes make this much easier. (Never mind the fact that every time I see this tried by a reenactor, the whole thing blows over within 5 minutes, nearly killing any nearby spectator! Angling the pila at 45 degrees is even more deadly. Not in MY camp!) 
 
Battles are rare. Marching and digging are all too common. The possible danger of a buttspike to the guy who threw it is far outweighed by its usefulness. (Though I do agree that they are something to watch out for when you charge after throwing!) 
 
Plus, do we know that all pila had buttspikes? Kinda puts a crimp in the method of stacking arms with them, but... 
 
Valete, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

Tasciavanous · 10-11-2004, 09:43 PM

This has sent me off at a slight tangent. I had always assumed that pila had buttspikes but................. 
I cant find any trace of buttspike finds! So does any one know of any confirmed buttspike finds? What was the corroborating evidence? is the any artistic record other that the "stand of arms" method of storage mentioned by Matt above ( that even so is suggestive of buttspikes but not firm evidence).

derek forrest · 10-12-2004, 05:18 PM

Had a quick look and there was a butt-spike found at kalkreise. 
 
Since we have been throwing Pila on a regular basis its clear that the front rank at least would use them as a direct fire missile thrown straight at the enemy in their faces. Currently the feeling seems to be against the bendy pila. We do not mention it in the commentary. Peter Connelly is the authority for that.

Tasciavanous · 10-12-2004, 07:48 PM

Sorry I should have been more specific I cant find any confirmed pilum buttspike finds. The buttspikes (i seem to recall there where two) found at Kalkreise aren't necessarily from pila but could just as easily have come from the shaft of a standard of one type or other or could just conceivably be from a native/auxiliary spear

Felix · 10-12-2004, 10:00 PM

Another simple thought: the pila are being thrown at the enemy, so unless the enemy line backpedalled very very quickly, the pila would be flying among them, and not in front. Consequently when the legion advanced, the pila would not be in the way.

Matthew Amt · 10-13-2004, 03:06 PM

The Cancellaria relief clearly shows pila with buttspikes. Some grave stones might, as well, though I haven't looked. Some are pretty vague, or might be seen to show a pilum withOUT a buttspike. 
 
Valete, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

10-20-2004, 08:48 PM

With the torso armor on and the large scuta, I doubt the buttspikes would prove much of an issue for Romans having to force through thier thrown pila piles, if they needed to do so to persuit a retreating enemy. 
 
The buttspikes on most reconstructions are copper, yes? and probably not all that sharp to begin with, so I can see the spikes, if they were sticking up at a rather high angle, not being much of a hinderance, and you can always push them out of the way or push them down to thr ground as you get through that mess. 
 
I'd think the Romans would be banking more on having the enemy dead and/or in full retreat after suffering Pila throws, rather than having to engage and chase the enemy through the pila forest. 
 
As for sticking them in the ground when "not in use" - the spike is helpful, although not always effective. 
(mind any small rocks under the grass...not only dents up the buttspike, but prevents a nice solid drive into the ground to hold up the dang pila)

Matthew Amt · 10-21-2004, 01:42 AM

Copper? Not in my Legion! All the originals I've seen are iron, just a triangular piece of sheet wrapped into a cone. Too simple. They didn't always even forge-weld the seam shut, though sometimes they hammered the point into a square section. 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew

Hibernicus · 10-21-2004, 05:14 PM

Butt spikes .. we have them on some, not on others.. some: copper, bronze, steel, brass.. kinda what's at hand. 
 
Even a sharpened wood end is useful for stabbing the butt end into the ground, though a metal spike helps. 
 
We stack pila, usually in fours, at least four as the core, lightly lashed (no knot) at the base of the metal shaft.. never had a prob with collapsing... (well, excepot the time when we were playing an ancient version of rugby and a pile of us crashed into the neat racks of pila..!) for our denarii the stack and lash method is safer (public-wise) than single pila standing upright. 
 
Hibernicus

10-22-2004, 12:38 AM

Ahhh. The Pila I have have copper spikes. Apparently that's indeed what Hibericus had "at hand" a year or so ago when I got them. 
 
(shakes finger at Hibernicus) -ANDY ~ Your Friendly Neighborhood Roman Dude. 
 
Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re (Soft in Manner, Strong in Deed) 
 
www.higgins.org 
www.higginssword.org

Login
Username:
Password:	Lost Password?
	Remember me