How does one scale a latter in full armor during a siege ?

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete.<br>
<br>
This question popped into my head while thinking about the siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. .<br>
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How could a legionaire possibly scale a siege latter in full armor without sacraficing his scutum and gladius in hand?<br>
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I think you need two free hands to scale a latter, since using only one is difficult and slow. Also, you'd be climbing at an already slow pace with all the weight you're carrying, right ?<br>
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I think scaling latters during a siege must've been the most dangerous job to have . You're completely vulnerable unless you have artillery and/or archers giving you cover fire.<br>
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Maybe this most simple of siege engines was used after the most intense fighting ?<br>
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Can anyone resolve the use of latters with their seemingly impracticality ?<br>
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-Theo<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Theo,<br>
<br>
Why would you need a gladius in your hand while scaling a ladder? And I think pila would hardly be necessary in a siege while you're fighting on the walls.<br>
The scutum is a different matter, but I gather you could hang it on your back (that would add some protection).<br>
<br>
Climbing ladders was extremely dangerous, especially when the walls had projecting towers for flanking fire!<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi, Valerius.<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why would you need a gladius in your hand while scaling a ladder? <hr><br>
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Well, I'd assume as I was scaling the latter that there'd be a horde of angry Jews waiting to do me in .<br>
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Actually, this question is a general one about siege latters (not specifically about the siege of Jerusalem).<br>
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Anyway, once you get to the top (or <em>if</em>) you'd have to unsheath your sword. I don't know about you, but I like to go in already armed .<br>
<br>
-Theo <p></p><i></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think pila would hardly be necessary in a siege while you're fighting on the walls.<hr><br>
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Yeah. I think in the movie "Masada" the legionairies were climbing the latters with only their pila in hand. <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

<br>
Of course, this angry mob is kinda worrying..<br>
But seriously, as long as you're climbing they won't hurt you that much, at least there's not anything your gladius will do to prevent it! No, I was thinking of drawing the sword only when you reach the top of the wall, and use both hands for climbing before that.<br>
How about clenching it between your teeth?<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Goffredo]

In your considerations you must not forget and not underestimate the fact that the scaling of a wall with ladders occurred with considerable missile fire back-up: the chosen portion of the fortification would be battered by a hail of arrows and stones, lead slingshot, bolts and all kinds of missiles. The defenders would be hurting too! I do not think scaling occurred spontaneously without preparation and considerable missile support. <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

I agree that soldiers might not necessarily have held pila when climbing siege ladders. When they reached the top and actually entered contact with the defenders it is reasonable to assume that they would be in VERY close proximity to the defenders, making a sword the the most appropriate weapon for the moment. If coils of rope were carried up by some soldiers (doesn't Josephus mention rope somewhere in his list of legionaries' equipment?), once a small section of the wall was cleared bundles of missiles could be hauled up by soldiers sheltering behind their shields to enable soldiers to hurl them at defenders in defended points further inside.<br>
As to the act of actually climbing the ladder, the ladder would have to be placed at a high angle (perhaps 70 degrees but I would think no more than 75 to prevent the ladder from falling backwards under the weight of the men on it) to prevent it from breaking under the weight of the soldiers, as it would do if it was set at too shallow an angle. Even if the ladder was set at a fairly high angle I think it would be possible to climb one handed, while the left hand held the shield (we should also remember the effect of adrenaline here, doubtless excited by aggressive communal shouts and chants immediately prior to setting and mounting the ladders). Near the top the sword could be drawn and the soldier could climb the next few feet either with no hands or clutching the sword and gripping the ladder at the same time with the right hand. I think that if this was necessary but technically difficult the Roman army army would have trained in order to get it right. They practiced the testudo, which is a siege technique. Why then, would they not practice other, less well documented siege techniques as well? Simply running up and placing the ladders correctly must have taken some practice after all. Using the ladders must have been practiced too, perhaps against the walls of the unit's own fort or fortress.<br>
A point about missile cover occurs too me here. I think Goffredo is correct in saying that while soldiers were setting and climbing the ladders they would benefit from considerable missile cover. However, when the leading men neared the parapet direct missile cover to that section of the wall would have to cease in order for the artillery crews not to hit their own men, although a considerable hail would still be directed against projecting bastions and indirectly against internal targets (until signalled to end by some pre-arranged signal from troops ready to move further in). This would mean that although they would be deprived of most of their missile backup the defenders might still have been able to venture back onto the wall to put up a stiff hand to hand defence against Romans clambering precariously off the tops of siege ladders.<br>
One last thought. I wonder if the mother of the first soldier onto the wall got the monetary proceeds from his corona muralia, along with the money for his weapons, eighth share of his tent and so on. After all, there must have been a significant number of winners who were killed within a minute or so of attaining the honour.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[richsc]

Didn't Kevin Costner illustrate the solution in his Robin Hood movie? Catapult over the wall with sword already drawn. <p>Legio XX<br>
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo<br>
<br>
</p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>Didn't Kevin Costner illustrate the solution in his Robin Hood movie? Catapult over the wall with sword already drawn. <hr><br>
Erm, no. Robin climbs on to the catapult, followed by Azeem, who moves his sword as though putting it in a sheath, but you can clearly see he either misses or there is no sheath, and so he just holds it there. When the two are catapulted in the next shot, both of Azeem's hands can be seen flailing and the sword can be seen fixed at his waist.<br>
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Besides that, Azeem's sword is of the 'Hollywood-Arab' type, being broader at the tip. Trouble is, so is his scabbard, narrow at the top and broad at the tip.. Get it?<br>
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Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Los456]

I think Crispvs is right, no doubt it was another drill they worked on prior to a seige. As to climbing the ladder with all this stuff, I would imagine you would loop a leather sling through the handle and have the scutum hanging say on your backto allow your hands to be free for scaling. After all, at that height, you are just as dead from falling as you are from being stabbed.<br>
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Of course an even more logical solution is that the first guys up may have been without shield all together as mobility would have been key for the first crew up, and just fought with sword. You put your best swordsman up front to establish a beachhead on the wall while the others lumber up behind them. IIRC there are some details of this from the Roman-Judeo war.<br>
<br>
Los <p></p><i></i>

[StrategyM]

Many of the smaller siege engines (especially ballistae) were constructed not to batter the walls, but to strip the wall of its crenelations and batter whoever might be standing up there with big rocks. There would also be a heavy covering fire put down by archers and targeteers.<br>
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Even then, though, the soldiers who got up would still have a problem, as they'd be exposed to fire from the other side of the wall, and they wouldn't really be in a position to "jump down" on to the other side. <p>Strategy <br>
Designer/Developer <br>
Imperium - Rise of Rome</p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Hence what I suggested about possibly hauling up bundles of missiles as soon as a few soldiers were able to detatch themselves from the fighting on the wall. Also, let's not forget the possibility of trajectory shooting by the supporting artillery, which would allow missiles to pass over the heads of the embattled soldiers on the wall and find targets among the defenders inside, possibly guided by signals from the soldiers on the wall.<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 10/1/04 6:42 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

I would have my shield strapped to my back and my gladius attached to my wrist via a leather strap. This way I can climb the ladder with both hands. On arrival I would swing the gladius in my hand and cut the strap to release my shield or leave my shield on my back and search for a shield that is left their by a dead defender, using two shields would make me an unwelcome guest...<br>
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I think speed is so essential that you can't have your shield or gladius in your hand and climb a ladder. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gauishoratiuspetrus>Gauis Horatius Petrus</A> at: 10/19/04 11:26 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Sod the ladder ... build a ramp & march up !!!<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[John Maddox Roberts]

I think most people are picturing a single ladder with soldiers attacking in a very slow single file. I suspect that an assault would involve dozens if not hundreds of ladders laid side-by-side. This would e very different for the defenders as there cannot be any defense in depth atop a wall. Still dicey for the lead men on the ladders, of course, but that's why the Romans provided the corona muralis as a reward for the first man atop a wall. During the Republic there was great competition for these crowns, because they were a huge boost to a political career. <p></p><i></i>