Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany

[Simplex]

Hi y' all:
Further References: (Update ??)

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... %2C00.html
In English

http://www.focus.de/wissen/wissenschaft ... 56123.html
In German.
It says (among other things)
-A victorius army of about 1000 Romans (that has beeen said earlier already)
-The area is called "Harzhorn" referring to the shape of the line of hills there running towards the western boundary of the Harz.
-Henning Hassmann from the Landesamt für Denkmalschutz is referring to ancient contemporary sources claiming that Maximinus Thrax was undertaking "sprees" deep ("several hundred Kilometres") into the Barbaricum.
-The excavation site where more than 600 finds were made stretches
1500 to 500 metres.
-Found were aside the things already mentioned in the contributions above some coins under them 1 piece well-used from the times of Commodus.
(Together with the sheath some of you discussed, this is one of the finds that constituted the thesis, that this battle could have taken place in the 3rd cent. AD)
-It's Günther Moosbauer from Osnabück University who assumed that the Romans had won. ( I don't remember if that has already beeen attributed to him)
-The fact that the weapons were left "on site" still riddles the excavators and an international circle of scientists/scholars will be constituted to discuss the "open" questions.
-The excavations will be resumed next year to further clarify who actually won this battle . (!)
To quote Henning Hassmann, only through three-dimensional assessment of the finds it will be possible to reconstruct the battle more precisely.

Greez


Simplex

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Whether it is definitely a tent peg is uncertain surely? A peg for tethering or fastening 'something' but probably not just for tents - it could have many many uses. Why would a tent peg be carried into battle? It would have been left with the tents in the baggage train wouldn't it?

I don´t know where exactly the tent peg was found...but there have been some cart-parts nearby as well.
By the way...it looks as if the top of it has never seen a hammer at all.

It could have been fairly new. It is a little flatened on the end. A wooden maul may have been used?

[Simplex]

Hi, .......
following your discussion and what I read about the finds, something else
springs into my mind. What about "carrobalistae" and these "pegs" being used to fasten these on carts/waggons and/or in firing position ??

Greez

Simplex

[Mar]

www.archeologydaily.com/news/index.php?/Latest/Discovery-of-Roman-Battlefield-Poses-Historical-Riddle.html

[jkaler48]

"-The fact that the weapons were left "on site" still riddles the excavators and an international circle of scientists/scholars will be constituted to discuss the "open" questions"

Either side would have "policed" the battlefield after a battle. The Romans
to keep weapons and metal to make weapons from the enemy and for salvage purposes - The "Barbarians" to reuse the weapons and metal.
Perhaps the ground was marshy, muddy or partly flooded during or shortly after the battle causing so many items to be not recovered by either side.
It may be that something like that could be concluded from detailed study of the soils that hasn't been completed yet. REVISION: OK looked at the photos of the find site on the side of a hill! Not marshy or flooded. Still maybe muddy. Maybe a mud slide buried the items.

[Mar]

I guess most of the weapon finds were buried by shooting them into that wall-like hilltop. Maybe even the wooden shafts went out of sight.

[Robert Vermaat]

Maybe the battle was not fought on one spot, but moved across this piece of ground after a while. If you go after a fleeing enemy, you may not be able to return at leisure and recover weapons et al.
To me this suggests that the Romans won - Germans would have been able to go back to the battlefield if they won, days or weeks later if necessary. Romans (being in hostile territory) may not have had that opportunity.

[Alexandr K]

Hi,

To me this suggests that the Romans won - Germans would have been able to go back to the battlefield if they won, days or weeks later if necessary. Romans (being in hostile territory) may not have had that opportunity.

Very interesting suggestion, Robert. Also the urge to recover lost equipment and especially metal parts wouldn't be that intensive in case of Romans. Unlike the Germans, they were very well supplied with arms and armour (especially with the metal peaces).

However one thing I would really like to know is how the archeologists came to the number of 1000 Romans from such finds... I admin I'm a little bit sceptical about this information. Anyone know anything more?

Greetings
Alexandr

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Either side would have "policed" the battlefield after a battle. The Romans to keep weapons and metal to make weapons from the enemy and for salvage purposes - The "Barbarians" to reuse the weapons and metal.

I'm not sure about whether the Romans would've done this. It's most likely a punitive or harrassment raid to me and given the estimated small size of the strike force they might as Robert said have been forced to stay no longer at one place thus lacking the time to collect metall.

A second question what comes to mind is if there are any indications what number of enemies they actually fought. It might have been just a little warband, that was destroyed in the aftermath so there were no survivors who couldn't come back to salvage metall and goods.

How comes that so many articles now state history has to be rewritten? The typical media hype? Don't want to downplay things, these are very exciting news, but I'd never felt the Roman army of that time had not the capacity to make such incursions, but simply didn't because of lack of political interest.

In fact this does not come as news at all - there are enough literary sources stating that the Romans were operating behind the limes. If this comes as news to someone, than that someone doesn´t know a lot about Roman military history or the sources. OR that someone wants to create a "sensation" which might help in raising funds to get someone employed for evaluating the find... etc... maybe making a new museum like in Kalkriese... etc... Tourists etc...
The material findings are not very spectacular, that is. Any really relevant information might derive from a well made vertical stratigraphy of the area as a result of a large surface excavation. This might help in finding out how the army operated there. Or may not.

thanks ... I thought something along these lines, but hoped I was wrong.

[L C Cinna]

does anyone know a bit more about the finds? what they've shown so far isn't really "special" or anything (not that I expected a sensation). They said something about 600 pieces. Arrowheads and ballista bolts are the usual en massè battlefield finds. I'm surprised by only 2 coins (would have expected many more). a helmte or sword would be great :wink:

maybe the Romans DID quickly clean the battlefield? main equipment seems to be missing (body armour, swords, helmets, shieldbosses) and no dead anywhere as of yet, right?

[Mar]

Hi,

To me this suggests that the Romans won - Germans would have been able to go back to the battlefield if they won, days or weeks later if necessary. Romans (being in hostile territory) may not have had that opportunity.

Very interesting suggestion, Robert. Also the urge to recover lost equipment and especially metal parts wouldn't be that intensive in case of Romans. Unlike the Germans, they were very well supplied with arms and armour (especially with the metal peaces).

However one thing I would really like to know is how the archeologists came to the number of 1000 Romans from such finds... I admin I'm a little bit sceptical about this information. Anyone know anything more?

Greetings
Alexandr

I think 1000 is derived from the assumed number of scorpios involved in this action.

[Theodosius the Great]

"Battlefield relics could rewrite Roman history"

http://www.theage.com.au/world/battlefi ... -70q1.html

If I got all the statements right, they're are talking (amongst other things)about the Romans beieng the winner and leaving weapons on the battleground.
Sounds like a case of "Pyrrhean Victory" to me.

I almost wish the Romans had lost. It would perhaps
increase the chances of finding a 3rd century helmet !





~Theo

[Alexandr K]

I think 1000 is derived from the assumed number of scorpios involved in this action.

Thank you, Marian. Still this didn't help much to remove my scepticism.

Alexandr

[Goffredo]

If the finds are of battle that involved 1000 legionaries and a comparable number of germanics, I would think that the operation of romans so far from the limes involved many more over broader/grander thrust into hostile territory. Any indication or opinions of how big such a search and destroy army would have to be?

[L C Cinna]

If the finds are of battle that involved 1000 legionaries and a comparable number of germanics, I would think that the operation of romans so far from the limes involved many more over broader/grander thrust into hostile territory. Any indication or opinions of how big such a search and destroy army would have to be?

not necessarily very big if the enemy was surprised or beaten before that.

the first punishment action Germanicus conducts (Tacitus Annales liber I 49-52) is a rather big one (but that was after the Romans had suffered the Varus desaster and had not campaigned in Germania since then). According to Tacitus 12.000 Legionaries plus 26 auxiliary cohorts and 8 alae.

He divided the legionary troops into 4 columns sent out to destroy everything in an area of around 35km "all around". So if we divide that and subtract a little to include guards and soldiers with other duties each column contains around 2.500 legionaries.

I guess the best time to conduct such operations would be after a victory, when the tribes were weakened. the Germanics had no standing army, so groups/alliances formed to attack and plunder some Roman towns and dispersed again after they returned or after they were beaten.

So I'd say wait till the Germanics come, defeat them near the limes and then their land is more or less open. You could split your forces, burn their villages, and kill, enslave and whatever else you feel like doing without expecting too much resistance once they are not united anymore.

usually cavalry does that job in antiquity but a combination is always good, especially when you want to penetrate deeper and cause more devastation. I guess the Syrians which participated in this operation were quite usefull (after all villages tend to be in the open
:wink: )