Romans vs. Normans--Help!

[Gaius_Calvus]

OK. Correct, Keegan does say that.

However, Keegan's analysis of Agincourt makes some very compelling arguments about medieval cavalry.

Where is your evidence to contravene his?

Furthermore, since you did not seem to read my posts very closely, I did not say that cavalry would not charge infantry. I stated that cavalry would not charge home against infantry that maintained their discipline and cohesion.

Where is your evidence to the contrary?

[Steakslim]

Did you not read any of my statements? also at agincourt the french reached the english line in sufficent numbers to prolong the battle for several hours also since Keegan has never trained or been around a medieval warhorse so how would he know? and at agincourt the waist deep mud and obstacles the english set up or made use of were a big factor, it wasn't the knights fault. You need to read about polish hussars and what I told you about knights having their horses charge a stone wall if a horse will charge pikemen, over cliffs and through fire and a human being do you think they would have a problem with spears that are signifcantly shorter than pikes? just because those people lived hundreds of years ago they wern't stupid, read about Cataphracts and Klibanophoroi. Keegan wasn't at agincourt all he does is make an analysis of the battle that he didn't see, and he makes theories about horses he knows nothing about

You also should read my posts a little closer I saw what you read and its wrong have you been around horses have you trained them? Read what I wrote about the methods they used for charging and horses that will charge home in the face of machine gun fire, and pikes and close together dummies won't have a problem with spears that are way shorter than pikes, even the russians used horses to charge tanks.... and won

[Proximus]

Well... hum... Russian horses and tanks, it is not an urban legend but it is far away from the reality... Do you realy thing those riders were alone ?

About Hussars, we must take some distance too, even if we have to admit it is a wonderfull and very special unit.

And about them, it their horses were not the low horses, but elite horses with a verry high price ! And the spear was a verry long spear.

Same about Cataphracts !

I think we should distinguish the training - is a horse able to charge a line without turn out or flight - and the efficiency of such an act.

Is it possible to train a horse to charge whaterver it charges ? Yes, I think so, again.

But concerning medieval times, horses and knights, exemples, etc... it is hard to do some generalisation.

Just in medieval times, the knighthood and nobility (court) codified the way to fight with so mutch importance that the knigths were often fighting together, ignoring the rest of the battle, prefering "gentle touch" of the noble opponent than the "rude pike" of the footmen. Lots of losts from the humble part of the armies... almost none from the noble part of armies... Except exceptions, notable enough to be remembered even now.

Because a footman does not make prisonners. A footman fight for his life, a knight or noble man fight for reputation and wealth.

And thoses codes changed so mutch just in medieval times (long period) it is difficult to have informations about just one battle...


No, I think it is verry difficult to start a discussion like this one. None have the right answer.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

... even the russians used horses to charge tanks.... and won

nope ... they lost. And it weren't russians but polish cavalry. happened at the beginning of WWII and never since ... cuz the unit was annihilated that day. strange mixture of foolhardiness and bravery.

[Matthew Amt]

Calmly, gents! Remember, we're supposed to be united against the Normans, here...

In fact, whether you can get horses to charge into steady infantry is irrelevant in this particular case--that didn't break the Saxons at Hastings, so it should be safe to assume it wouldn't break Romans, either. Spears or not!

Does anyone have anything more about stirrups versus no stirrups, etc?

Thanks and Valete,

Matthew

[Steakslim]

No I'm not talking about the poles (That's german propaganda BTW) yes the poles used cavalry on infantry and supply trains in ambushes and the like, but the 'tanks' were APC's and the poles retreated. The russians would charge tanks from ambush (Since the visiblity was very bad) and pour oil all over the tank, then set the oil on fire which trapped the crew inside and the fire sucked up all the oxygen thus suffocating the crew and if they tried to get out the russians killed them

[L C Cinna]

Does anyone have anything more about stirrups versus no stirrups, etc?

Thanks and Valete,

Matthew

stirrups are completely useless for a charge imho. they are nice fore horsearchers and for sidewards stability when fighting at close quarters but won't help you in a charge.

or like Junkelmann pointed out:

look at the depictions of chargin medieval cavalry. they are usually depicted holding their legs down and slightly forward and extremely long stirrups! this position makes stirrups completely useless to help you in the charge. (see pics below).

The very long stirrups are nice when you come to close quarter fighting and want to lean down, not for the charge! On the other hand a horsearcher would most probably use rather short ones which make it easier to stand up.

it's the saddle that matters and here I don't see a big difference. the 4-horned Roman saddle might have a little less sidewards stability than the Norman's plus stirrups but in general...

Would should be a more important point for the discussion are the horses as the Romans used smaller ones than the Normans afaik.

btw the Norman horsemen on the Bayeux Tapestry seem to fight quite similar to the Romans, with the overhand spear.

here some pics to illustrate what I meant:

check the positions of the riders with the spears (especially legs and stirrups)!



pic1


pic2. they fight exactly like some ancient cavalry would in this pic!

[Steakslim]

Yes you can make a charge without stirupps however staying on is a different story stirupps also allow you to put more weight in the saddle when the horse runs

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

No I'm not talking about the poles (That's german propaganda BTW) yes the poles used cavalry on infantry and supply trains in ambushes and the like, but the 'tanks' were APC's and the poles retreated. The russians would charge tanks from ambush (Since the visiblity was very bad) and pour oil all over the tank, then set the oil on fire which trapped the crew inside and the fire sucked up all the oxygen thus suffocating the crew and if they tried to get out the russians killed them

Fair enough, but this polish charge is still the only one where a bigger cavalry unit in formation ever attacked tanks head-on. I didn't say they knew the tanks were there when they started the attack. But as a result approx. half of those attacking were killed, wounded or captured. Don't know what you mean mit german propaganda. It sadly happened. No one doubts it, not even the poles. Watch the polish movie Lotna.
However ...
Attacking an APC (which is a tank) or an actual battle tank makes no difference to the horse. It's suicidal either way.
The russian raids you mention are no charges as are diskussed here but went against singled out vehicles. Further these horses weren't supposed to crash into the tank, but to ride by. I actually wonder why one would need a horse for that. Pretty conspicuous :? . Anyways ... its out of question that horses do such things.

[Proximus]

The german propaganda had tendance to paint the polish as barbarians with horses defying the high-technologic army (seen the video myself but I have to search them), so it should have influenced a little what we know of this event.

Concerning russian horse raids, I think it could be done with motorbike or bicycle, or whatever... What I mean is this is not a mirror of the efficiency of horse riders... Only of the cleverness of some armies...

Must be tempered as Polish horses against tanks must be too...


Edit : Cross-post with Sir Gothic.

[Steakslim]

I'm telling you the Polish cavalry never fought tanks they wern't stupid

How is it out of the question that the russians did that? their theater of operations was so big that cavlary was a viable and mobile option, and I never said that the horses hit the tank they just ran up to from cover in an ambush

BTW we're getting off topic we should be discussing how our roman forefather will crush the barbarian scum

[LCorneliusScaeva]

It seems to me from this translation that Arrian seems to think horses would charge a line of spear-wielding soldies:

"Once thus arrayed there should be silence until the enemies come within missile range; when in range the loudest and most intimidating war cry must be raised by the whole lot, and bolts and stones must be fired from the artillery pieces and arrows from the bows, and javelins by both light armed and shield bearing javelinmen. Stones must also be thrown at the enemies by the allied force on the overwatch position, and the whole missile rain must be coming from all sides to make it concentrated enough to panick the horses and destroy the enemies. And the expectation is that the Scythians will not get close to the infantry battle formation because of the tremendous weight of missiles. If they do close in though, the first three ranks should lock their shields and press their shoulders and receive the charge as strongly as possible in the most closely ordered formation bound together in the strongest manner. The fourth rank will throw their javelins overhead and the first rank will stab at them and their horses with their spears without pause. After repulsing the enemy if there’s a clear rout, the infantry units must clear lanes and the horsemen should advance, not all squadrons, but only half of them. Those to the fore must be the first to advance. The other half should follow those that advance, in perfect formation and not in hot pursuit in order that they may continue the initial pursuit with fresh horses in case there is a complete rout, and in case they turn about to attack, they may assist those in pursuit. At the same time the Armenian archers must advance shooting their bows in order to prevent those in flight from turning about, and the light armed javelineers should advance at the run. The infantry formation should not hold its ground, but should advance at faster than the normal step in order to be a base of defence for the cavalrymen if there is stronger resistance by the enemies. "

From the web page:

http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/ ... taxis.html

From reading everything on the above web page it seems to me when Arrian was refering to 'the enemy charging' he was talking about a calvery charge.

[Steakslim]

The german propaganda had tendance to paint the polish as barbarians with horses defying the high-technologic army (seen the video myself but I have to search them), so it should have influenced a little what we know of this event.

Concerning russian horse raids, I think it could be done with motorbike or bicycle, or whatever... What I mean is this is not a mirror of the efficiency of horse riders... Only of the cleverness of some armies...

Must be tempered as Polish horses against tanks must be too...


Edit : Cross-post with Sir Gothic.

Try using a gun, saber, an oilcan and a lighter while riding a motorcycle

[Proximus]

The german propaganda had tendance to paint the polish as barbarians with horses defying the high-technologic army (seen the video myself but I have to search them), so it should have influenced a little what we know of this event.

Concerning russian horse raids, I think it could be done with motorbike or bicycle, or whatever... What I mean is this is not a mirror of the efficiency of horse riders... Only of the cleverness of some armies...

Must be tempered as Polish horses against tanks must be too...


Edit : Cross-post with Sir Gothic.

Try using a gun, saber, an oilcan and a lighter while riding a motorcycle

Two person by motorcycle... as cameraman does

It was an illustration, just to say that it does not give points to riding, it gives point to cleverness

[Steakslim]

Okay I get you although there are some reasons why the russians may have prefered horses

1 A horse can be fed off the land with a cycle you have to carry tools, gas, etc. and as prox said you would need two crew men with a horse you only need one rider

2 With russia's economy the way it was, a horse and one rider would be cheaper than two cyclists and a good cycle

3 With a horse it's much cheaper to equip one rider than it is two cyclists, a mechanic, etc.

4 The oilcan method is much cheaper than anti-tank weapons

5 A horse is very mobile