The Tactics of Riothamus

[Ron Andrea]

But is it not possible that, even though everything we think we know about St. Gurthiern is fiction or borrowed, that there may have been an individual--perhaps not even named Gurthiern--around whom this myth and rumor coalesced? :? After all, someone founded that abbey.

That's the frustrating thing about doing history in the Dark Ages, we don't even know what we don't know. And it may be as dangerous to assume we know nothing as to assume any particular detail we "know" is true. :wink:

[Alanus]

Well, I don't know.

I think you both have a point. What was real and what was not? When we look at the pedigrees and see a grandson (or sometimes son, but less frequently) named after his grandfather, this echoes what we still practice today. Some say that people believed the animus of the grandfather comes back in this fashion.

But whatever, this practice of repetition in the pedigrees could also accout for Robert's explanation: borrowing and confaltion. Yet we find names that also spring from nowhere, not from other British folk tales, genealogies, or poems. These are the anamolies I referred to earlier. Saloman is a good example. He arrives from nowhere. His name is never Solomon, but Sylimon, or Salmon, etc. This is an intrusion, unlike the likely connection between Vortigern and Gurthyern to a saint with almost an identical name.

In many cases, I do believe we find truth in these bogus pedigrees, not from the repetition, not from the borrowing, but from the exceptional, foreign name that needs legitimization.

Another example in the same family is "Alan." This foreign, non-British name arrives early, about five generations after Saloman. And it seems to be the original "Alan" upon which all the later Alans and Alains are built (all basically in the same family). And as someone pointed out, Alani and Alamanni may have been confused by scribes, especailly since all this stuff was abbrevieated in the mms. But in this case I beleive it refers to the tribe.

The exception, the foreign, is the link. Not the repetition.

[Robert Vermaat]

But is it not possible that, even though everything we think we know about St. Gurthiern is fiction or borrowed, that there may have been an individual--perhaps not even named Gurthiern--around whom this myth and rumor coalesced? :? After all, someone founded that abbey.

It's possible that The Egyptians came from outer space. Unlikely, but possible.
No Ron, in this case if you read the Life of St. Gurthiern, it's clear that all is taken from other sources. All local sources lost, how would anyone even remember who founded the abbey? But more important - no-one cared! Like I said, a common occurrance during the Middle Ages, claims could be strengthened by adding well-known ancient heroes or famous people from long-gone eras. Or do you really believe that Magnus maximus had offspring among all the tribes of Wales?
For me, the most interesting thing is how a hated person in 12th-c. Welsh history could become a saint in Brittany. No, I don't think there was a 'real' Breton Vortigern behind it all.

And it may be as dangerous to assume we know nothing as to assume any particular detail we "know" is true. :wink:

Or as dangerous that 'all is possible' and build on from that 'where's smoke there must be fire' assumption. :wink:

[Alanus]

True.
But also true is the observation of smoke and equating it with fire.
This is an assumption, but a rather good one. :wink:
Smoke detection companies have been built on this premise; and countless lives and homes have been saved by this method of thinking.

[Agraes]

Alan is according to Léon Fleuriot probably a celtic name. Ferdinant Lot popularised the idea the name became adopted by the Bretons following contacts with the Alans, yet Alan means in old welsh "young deer" and is also one of the name of the fox in old breton. Similar names in other celtic languages are linked to animals with red fur. It is likely another "totemic" celtic name, such as Ceneu/Canao, "young wolf", Arth, "bear", ki/con, "hound", bran, "raven", etc.

It is also interesting to see that those "foreign" names were well-used names by the time the pedigrees were written down. Iahan/Jean is the name of several dukes of Brittany, Alan was the name of the duke rival to William the Bastard, Alan Fergant, Daniel is also well-known in Brittany, and I already refered to the case of Salomon beeing the name of a famous IXth century ruler.

[Alanus]

Thanks. There are some good threads here.
But Old Welsh and Breton are languages of the sixth-century and onwards; for instance no "h" in arth prior to that time. Whereas "alan" with the Latin "i" goes back at least to the fourth century and reached northern Gaul in the first decade of the fifth century.
The same with Saloman, a nomen of a person born prior to 400.
Your mention of "red" is interesting, since the hair color seemed prevelent in the Alanic culture (along with blonde).
Perhaps we should not discount the origin of Alan as being solely from one culture (Celtic) or the other (Alanic), especially since both cultures had a high number of similarities that go back to the bronze age and the Indo-European "homeland."