Regarding Marcus Atilius Regulus

[PMBardunias]

Sadly, I did not have space to examen Regulus in any detail in my forthcoming AW article on Xanthippus and the battle of Bagradas. One thing that is always pointed out as mythical in his story, thus weakening various of the accounts, is the Roman encounter with a huge python along a river. I have seen this described as a creation of whole cloth and its symbolism conjectured, but it probably was based on a true encounter. Pythons do get very big, and it is easy to exaggerate the length of a snake that is as thick as a man's waist- moreso if you only see the stretched skin. There are ancient parallels that should be considered. Aelian records huge snakes for Ethiopia and we have this description from Diodorus (III 36) whch has some fanciful elements, but there is no reason to disbelieve the snake existed:

Some of the hunters, therefore, when they saw how liberal the king was in his rewards, got together a considerable party and decided to hazard their lives and catch one of the big snakes to take to Alexandria and give to Ptolemy. Though this was a great and marvelous undertaking, fortune favored their plan and gave them success. They spied a serpent forty-five feet long near a pool of water. It would remain coiled and motionless until some animals came to the spot to quench their thirst, when it would suddenly rear and seize an animal with its fangs and twine its coils about the body so that the victim could not escape. As the snake was large and of a sluggish nature they hoped that they could take it with ropes and nooses; so first they went at it boldly, having every- thing ready for use. But when they were near they were struck with terror, seeing its fiery eye and its tongue darting in every direction; and besides as it glided through the woods and rubbed its rough scales it made a horrible noise, and its fangs were huge and there was a fierce look about the mouth and it had wondrous large coils. Pale with fright and with fainting hearts they threw the nooses over its tail. As soon as the rope touched its body, the snake turned with a frightful hiss, rose above the first hunter, seized him in its mouth and devoured him alive; the second was encoiled while attempting to flee and drawn in, then enveloped and crushed in its embrace. The rest of the hunters were panic-stricken and sought safety in flight...By starvation they reduced the ferocity of the monster and gradually tamed it so that it became very gentle. Ptolemy gave the hunters a suitable reward and kept the tame serpent as the most marvelous exhibit for visitors to his kingdom.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:

I have seen this described as a creation of whole cloth and its symbolism conjectured, but it probably was based on a true encounter. Pythons do get very big, and it is easy to exaggerate the length of a snake that is as thick as a man's waist- moreso if you only see the stretched skin.

.....I am a little surprised that you who are a Natural Scientist should give even a shred of credence to such stories as the Regulus encounter with a giant serpent.

Let us look at the facts:-
There are four species of 'giant' snakes in the world, all of the Boidae and Python families --- the green anaconda, the reticulated python, the African rock python and the Burmese python. All live in Tropical climates and are mostly confined there, largely because of their size which requires them to spend at least part of their lives supported by water. None grow to more than 8 metres or so (26 feet), though as pointed out, the skin can be stretched to as much as 140% ( 11m/36 ft) and more if skillfully done. Aside from references to Alexander and giant snakes in the East, there are only two references/anecdotes in our ancient sources to 'monster snakes' in the Mediterranean world - The Bagradas one, and a reference to Ptolemy II Philadelphus obtaining a Giant Snake 45 feet long from 'Ethiopia' ( read somewhere a long way south) above. The only realistic candidate for these creatures would be the African Rock Python which is generally around 5.5 m/18 ft, and the largest recorded example being 7.5 m/25 ft.
Can a Rock Python devour an adult human ? No! Despite being able to unlatch its jaws, it cannot get around an adult human's shoulders, though there is a single recorded instance of a Rock Python eating a very small child.
Being confined to sub-saharan Africa, it would not have been possible for an African Rock Python, then or now, to live in/be native to North Africa/Egypt ( even if conditions in North Africa were suitable, which they are not) because the species simply couldn't cross the Sahara.
So could Ptolemy have had a Giant Snake? - plausible, allowing for considerable exaggeration of size, and of the details of its capture ( doubtless to maximise the reward!).... a Rock Python captured way south could have been brought via Ethiopia/the Nile to Alexandria.
Could the Romans have fought a 36m/120 ft Python in Tunisia that ate soldiers and was impervious to spears, javelins and arrows? Absolutely not! Pure myth then, with the possible exception of the detail that a large snakeskin hung as a trophy in a temple until approximately 133 BC - but that could only realistically have come from the same source as Ptolemy's pet. Still, if that detail were true, it would provide the stimulus for the tale.......

[PMBardunias]

Let us look at the facts:-
None grow to more than 8 metres or so (26 feet), though as pointed out, the skin can be stretched to as much as 140% ( 11m/36 ft) and more if skillfully done.

You'll note I mentioned the "fanciful" details- like enourmous size and Godzilla-like combat skills. Aelian describes two snakes that are 5 meters or so. A more likely size for the snake that spawned the Regulus serpent myth, 5-7 meters.

The only realistic candidate for these creatures would be the African Rock Python which is generally around 5.5 m/18 ft, and the largest recorded example being 7.5 m/25 ft.
Can a Rock Python devour an adult human ? No! Despite being able to unlatch its jaws, it cannot get around an adult human's shoulders, though there is a single recorded instance of a Rock Python eating a very small child.

Sure they could- or at least get enough of you down that you would not care about the differnence. The concept of large snakles swallowing men is common wherever they are found- no reason to believe a roman would not simply believe this possible. The notion that they get stuck on the shoulders is funny. I saw that on a discovery channel show, which perhaps you saw as well. They didn't bother to try it with the snake swallowing a man feet-first. You will read that snakes swallow head first, but anyone who has owned one knows this is not true 100 % of the time. We had a 5 meter Burmese python eat a 3 meter alligator here a few years ago and burst opened. Irrelevent though, they surely could be big enough for the story tellers to believe they could do this.

Being confined to sub-saharan Africa, it would not have been possible for an African Rock Python, then or now, to live in/be native to North Africa/Egypt ( even if conditions in North Africa were suitable, which they are not) because the species simply couldn't cross the Sahara.

Be careful searching things like this- you are quoting the modern range. There is good evidence for P. sebae in North Africa in ancient times. Remember that Loxodonta cyclotis is a "sub-saharan" species as well on modern maps. Libya was a very different place back then.

Could the Romans have fought a 36m/120 ft Python in Tunisia that ate soldiers and was impervious to spears, javelins and arrows? Absolutely not! Pure myth then

Well, you best keep that baby you just threw out with the bath water away from pythons! Obviously the Loch Ness aspects of the story are embellished, but there is more reason to accept that the Romans came across a 5-7 meter snake, or the skin of one in sime village, than to assume the story is some sorf of allegory.

[Paullus Scipio]

At first sight, I thought perhaps another debate was in the offing, but on reading on, I see that we are largely in agreement ! D
I shall confine comment to a few by-the-by's therefore........

The notion that they get stuck on the shoulders is funny. I saw that on a discovery channel show, which perhaps you saw as well. They didn't bother to try it with the snake swallowing a man feet-first. You will read that snakes swallow head first, but anyone who has owned one knows this is not true 100 % of the time.

....it matters not which way round the snake tries to swallow, apparently the snake's jaws simply won't open wide enough to admit adult human shoulders. If the snake were to be dumb enough to try narrow/feet end first, it would probably end up choking to death ( the snake can't regurgitate, because all it's teeth, including those on the roof of it's mouth, point backward). Anyway, lots of soldiers is preposterous ( while it slowly tried to devour one, the others would hack it to pieces....)

We had a 5 meter Burmese python eat a 3 meter alligator here a few years ago and burst opened.

....yeah, I read about that. Snake digestion is a very slow process, and if the snake attempts too ambitious a meal, then putrefaction can set in first, and kill the snake.......
I have watched a Vet here cut open a large Python's stomach to remove a rotting Possum, in order to save the snake's life....

Be careful searching things like this- you are quoting the modern range. There is good evidence for P. sebae in North Africa in ancient times. Remember that Loxodonta cyclotis is a "sub-saharan" species as well on modern maps. Libya was a very different place back then.

....actually, I am not quoting the 'modern' range. There is indeed evidence for P.sebae in N. Africa in 'ancient' times, but not later than the pre-historic Eocene period! (54.8-33.7 million years ago). As I said, apparently the environment of North Africa simply couldn't support such creatures, even 2,000 or so years ago. And mammals such as elephants are known to have existed in Libya then. Megafauna such as Giant Reptiles did not.......

but there is more reason to accept that the Romans came across a 5-7 meter snake, or the skin of one in sime village, than to assume the story is some sorf of allegory.

...which is much the same as I said for the origin of such a fable........ D

[PMBardunias]

apparently the snake's jaws simply won't open wide enough to admit adult human shoulders.

I'm not sure where you got this from, but its not true. A Tapirs, hogs and small buffalo are all wider than the shoulders of most men, so the mouth can open that far. The reason put forward that a snake cannot eat a man head first is the angle formed by head and shoulder. The snake needs the width to taper smoothly. No snake devours anyone while in a fight. In fact they regurgitate if harrassed- something they can do despite the recurved teeth.

Snake digestion is a very slow process, and if the snake attempts too ambitious a meal, then putrefaction can set in first, and kill the snake.......quote]

This is one reason that venom evolved- it digests the animal from the inside out while the stomach does so from the outside in.

And mammals such as elephants are known to have existed in Libya then. Megafauna such as Giant Reptiles did not.......

"Giant" snaked are hardly megafauna. Ecologically they are perhaps equivalent to leopards or wolves- they don't eat all that often. They surely could live along rivers or a swampy delta. Relic populations of things like Nile crocodiles have been found in arid regions of NW africa in just this manner.

[Paullus Scipio]

I'm not sure where you got this from, but its not true. A Tapirs, hogs and small buffalo are all wider than the shoulders of most men, so the mouth can open that far. The reason put forward that a snake cannot eat a man head first is the angle formed by head and shoulder. The snake needs the width to taper smoothly. No snake devours anyone while in a fight. In fact they regurgitate if harrassed- something they can do despite the recurved teeth.

I have seen a reticulated Python very close up - all 7 metres of it! ( at Steve Irwin's Australia Zoo) and impressive as it is, there is no way it could choke down an adult human!
Out of curiosity, I contacted the keepers there and they confirmed that only the largest Anaconda or Asian reticulated Python could even attempt such a thing, and there is no confirmed record of one doing so, though a small child is reputed to have been eaten by a reticulated Python....
Small Buffalo?.....only perhaps a new-born.....
Anyway, the point is, not possible for African Rock Python, and clearly we agree that the story as told with eaten soldiers etc is pure fairy tale......


P.S.

Ecologically they are perhaps equivalent to leopards or wolves- they don't eat all that often.

...perhaps a better analogy might be to Crocs....there is a world of difference between the amount of food needed by cold-blooded reptiles and warm blooded mammals....a predatory mammal such as a lion needs 10 times as much prey as a similar sized predatory reptile such as a Croc or Python ( this was one of the facts used in the debate to determine if some predatory dinasaurs might have been warm-blooded)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Possibly a now extinct and unidentified snake is the source of the myth.

[Ebusitanus]

Great thread to be read. To bad we have no laudes to throw around anymore.

Thanks for all involved.

[PMBardunias]

Here's a smaller snake regurgitating a young tapir, note the proportions between them. A small man would be relatively smaller to a 20+ foot snake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jWhUfB ... re=related

[SigniferOne]

But I think the overall point shouldn't be missed either. As Paul said, the baby shouldn't be thrown out with the bathwater. Even if we assume that the snake's proportions were exaggerated and mythological, from that follows absolutely nothing. Say Regulus encountered and slain a perfectly natural yet terrifying 10ft snake: this in itself would be foil for stories. The first person would say that a "gigantic" snake was encountered (did someone always have to measure it?); the next person, hearing that, would convey that it was terrifying and ate animals whole, to others; the third person, hearing that, might've wondered why it couldn't eat people too; etc.

Some scholars have been all too willing to say that since the final details were unrealistic, then the whole story was completely fabricated. If Regulus battled a dragon, or at least a snow-bear in the middle of Africa, then the situation would be different. Roman historiography never mentions actually fantastical details, and the last person to whom such details apply is the first person whom it purports to describe: Romulus. After that the history is relentlessly natural. There is no Fabius Maximus battling dragons, or Manlius Torquatus flying on a pegasus.

[Paullus Scipio]

I think we are all agreed that there is likely to be some kernel of truth behind the 'legend' ( as with most legends)......you may recall I mentioned earlier that a large snakeskin, reputedly the very one, was on display in a Roman Temple down to the time of the Jugurthine war ......