Arthurian stuff

[Robert Vermaat]

Frank is a nice guy with lots of original ideas. But indeed, he seeems to jump across the fence of evidence sometimes...

[Arturus Uriconium]

Conal: what did you think of Pace's book?

Robert: have you read Pace's book yet?

Conal: shame Warlords: The Struggle for Power in Post-Roman Britain has been delayed.

[Conal]

Have'nt read Pace yet as I'm doing Reno's two Arthuriana books 1st .... and a few more waiting un-read on the shelf too :|

1- Archaeology of Identity: Soldiers and Society in Later Roman Britain - Andrew Gardner
2- Celtic Britain and Ireland, 200-800 A.D.: The Myth of the Dark Ages - lloyd Laing
3- Rome and the Barbarians, 100 B.C.-A.D. 400 Professor - Thomas S. Burns
4- Warfare in Roman Europe AD 350-425 - Hugh Elton
5- Late Roman Warlords - Penny MacGeorge

I daren't look at Robert's book list ... got to a stage now 800+ books on shelf so have had to promise - one in one out :roll:

I am having trouble with Reno also as his quotes from 1920s authors, with 1920s attitudes bugs me a bit... i'e that pre Rome there was just barbarian squalor ... did em a damn favour invading them, bally rough uncivilised types.

One thing he does postulate that I need to consdier more widely is to what extent Latin was the lingua-Britannia for the common folks?

[dux bellum]

That's my point ... he was a sub to Gwynedd ... had he been in the direct line he may have been claimable but ... the envy of others kept him out of the geneologies other than where he was rightfully rex minorum ( i made that word up i think :lol: ).

He kicked out the Saxons ... but the Gwynedd A team took the credit.

I'm still :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

Wink all ya want.
That....seems like way too much speculation...and why would a sub-king in North Wales be worried about Saxons in the Southeast?

Owain, under his fame as Arthur (the Bear of Badon ), let the side down when he lost to his uncle Cerdic ...Cunedda's son .. at Camlan.

:? ? ?
Cunedda=Cerdic's grandson? Err...

Again, N. Wales vs. Southern Britain=??
I'd like ta see a verified genealogy proving that...

Frank is a nice guy with lots of original ideas. But indeed, he seeems to jump across the fence of evidence sometimes...

Very true. Take Reno with a grain of salt...

[Conal]

That....seems like way too much speculation...and why would a sub-king in North Wales be worried about Saxons in the Southeast?

Watling Street :roll: .. would bring them right to his doorstep? :wink:

Also Reno has it that Gewissae was a Saxon territory that eventually linked up with Wessex. Apparently there are large Saxon cemeterys, which are larger than those of the initial area of Wessex, indicating reasonable numbers and/or longevity of occupation preceeding the eventiual link up.

He speculates (but then you must about this period) that Cerdic, a celtic name, was of dual nationality, his mother being Saxon, and may have sided with the Saxons of this territory.

[Arturus Uriconium]

A lot of this also depends on what was left of the province of Britannia Prima at the time. Roger White in his book argues that it may still have existed c. 490 so, it is possible, that the province may call on its constituent kingdoms to fight at it's borders... BUT, I would have thought they may have had their hands full with Irish raiders. :!

If Dinarth didn't exist, no one would have considered Owain as Arthur. It could simply be named after bears that would have existed at the time, or this was the name of given to the Rhos warriors. There is a place on Anglesey called Llwyn-yr-Arth - 'Grove of the Bear' - and, interestingly, this is near where Catgolaun Lau-hir is thought to have fought his last battle against the Irish (Battle at Cerrig Y Gwyddel) c.516. But arth/art is not that uncommon:

Arthog in Gwynedd (near Barmouth)
Arthrath in Aberdeenshire
Arthill in Cheshire
Artthington near Leeds
Arthursdale near Leeds
Arthingwoth in Northamptonshire
Artington in Surrey
Artafallie in the Highlands

...beside fields and woods with the name arth in Wales.

Apart from all the arguments I've already mentioned against Owain being Arthur, there is the little matter that Arthur isn't said to being a king. :?

[Arturus Uriconium]

Also...

Llanfihangel-ar-arth in Carmarthenshire
Llanddewi Aber-arth in Ceredigion
Llan-arth in Monmouthshire
Llanarth in Ceredigion
Dyffryn Arth in Ceridigion
Castell Allt Craig Arth (also known as Dinerth) in Ceridigion above the...
Avon Arth in Ceridigion, and...
Aber Arth.

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

[Agraes]

We also have a Dinard in Brittany :wink:

[Arturus Uriconium]

We also have a Dinard in Brittany :wink:

Are the many other ard names?

Interesting that the bear became extinct in Britain around 500AD.

[dux bellum]

That....seems like way too much speculation...and why would a sub-king in North Wales be worried about Saxons in the Southeast?

Watling Street :roll: .. would bring them right to his doorstep? :wink:

Also Reno has it that Gewissae was a Saxon territory that eventually linked up with Wessex. Apparently there are large Saxon cemeterys, which are larger than those of the initial area of Wessex, indicating reasonable numbers and/or longevity of occupation preceeding the eventiual link up.

He speculates (but then you must about this period) that Cerdic, a celtic name, was of dual nationality, his mother being Saxon, and may have sided with the Saxons of this territory.

Yeah, a Saxon army or warband could take Watling to ...but then they'd be stuck many miles away from home, deep in enemy territory. Seems more likely that the Saxons would try to push westwards towards the Severn, to divide the southern British kingdoms from the more northern ones.

You are right about the Gewissae, and yes, Cerdic was more likely half-Briton, but his father was Osela or Esela, the grandson of Gewis (of the Gewissae). There's no mention anywhere of any of Cerdic's ancestors marrying into the family of Cunedda.

[Conal]

You are right about the Gewissae, and yes, Cerdic was more likely half-Briton, but his father was Osela or Esela, the grandson of Gewis (of the Gewissae). There's no mention anywhere of any of Cerdic's ancestors marrying into the family of Cunedda.

Reno is also conflating Hwicce with Gewissae.

[Medicus matt]

By then it will (if it goes according to plan) have the face of yrs truly of the front cover. :roll:

It has, and it's crammed full of pictures of Mr Conyard and his chaps.

Fair put me off my dinner it did.

[Robert Vermaat]

Robert: have you read Pace's book yet?

No, not yet.

[Robert Vermaat]

Also Reno has it that Gewissae was a Saxon territory that eventually linked up with Wessex. Apparently there are large Saxon cemeterys, which are larger than those of the initial area of Wessex, indicating reasonable numbers and/or longevity of occupation preceeding the eventiual link up.

He speculates (but then you must about this period) that Cerdic, a celtic name, was of dual nationality, his mother being Saxon, and may have sided with the Saxons of this territory.

Well, The Gewissae were the forerunners of the West Saex, so in a sense that's correct - or did he mean that they were two different regions?

I'm not sure of Cerdic being of dual nationality - I'm more inclined to believe that later members of that family 'went over' and incorporarted the whole lineage into 'Saxon history' a good deal later.

[Conal]

Robert

But was it in the area of the Hwicce ... i.e. bordering Welsh territory?