Recreating Hoplite combat

[Kineas]

As for dirt- Please correct me if I am wrong, and this may be for a different thread, but from the accounts I have read the 'campaign' impression isnt completely authentic. I can see things being slightly worn and used, but not completely filthey. The concept of campaigning was still fairly far away and things were usually resolved in a battle or two. I can see there being 'marching dirt' and use on hoplite equipment, but I dont see it being filthy. True, aspises, helmets and dorys were tools, but I cant see them being unkempt. At least in my experience, when it comes to fighting, your weapon is your lifeblood. having a properly functioning weapon is the difference between life and death, so youre going to keep it clean. I know ive done campaign events where I was covered from head to toe in mud, but you could still just about eat off of my rifle because every single time we stopped I would clean it to make sure it stayed in proper firing condition, partially because if I didnt the Sgt would be on my butt, but also because I wanted it to work when the time came to use it. I cant see it being much different back then. I know personally I would keep my armor in good condition, simply because it could save my life. Can it show use and some wear? sure, but I dont think it should be filthy. But thats just me.

Only a handful of CW guys who have never been soldiers equate filth and authenticity. A soldier is as clean and neat as he can be at all times--it's just easier and more comfortable. I served in the Gulf and in Somalia and all over Africa--no one wants to be dirty.

That said, the cleanliness of what I call "war porn" (an osprey illus) is wrong. And most campaigns that we know of in Greece lasted between a few weeks and a summer. Hanson's ideal of the three day campaign--well, it needs some documentation! At Marathon (and one of the reasons that every impression requires a date and a place is so that you can avoid trivial generalities) at Marathon, the Plataeans were 3-10 days from home. That's a nice, reenact-able time and distance.

I don't mean we'll be "dirty." but we'll have lived in our clothes and washed them in a period way and lived in them for a year or two and etc--so dyes fade (correct dyes...) and fabric loses a patina--I think you know what I mean. And equipment maintained in the field with period stuff--beeswax, as you say, and olive oil, and pumice and tow (lots of room for experimentation and learning, here)--will look subtly different from factory polished equipment, just as one of Manning Imperial's burnished helms looks different from a Deepeeka helm.

Look, I'm not some sort of perfectionist--in my home hobby, I'm a moderate who advocates making space for everyone to play! And I'll cry when my shield breaks. It's tough as nails, but it will break. Sooner or later, something will give.

And I'll replace it. Friends, this is a mindset thing. I KNOW, right now, that no item of my kit is so correct that in 3-5 years I won't see it as utterly wrong. I don't have one piece of kit in my Rev War impression that pre-dates 2002, and I've been doing that hobby since 1975. There is no "right." There is only "the best I know today." And when something breaks or wears out, you replace it with the latest research. You teach new guys to think the same way--nothing is permanent, and when this breaks, I get a new one. Unit commanders need to have spares and maintain them. That's why they get to be in command... they have the biggest basements. (Local joke).

The cheapest way to get as aspis is to build one. We're building our own. What I see of the new Indian aspis looks quite good--if the weight is low enough, I'll use them, but they'll have to be cheaper than the ones we make ourselves! I'm not used to the idea of buying off the rack--I've always made my kit, or made most of it and traded for the rest. I always recommend to a new guy that he learn enough metalwork or leather work or fine sewing to trade for his kit.

Anyway--apologies, I mean no offense, and I can see I'm raising dander and sounding like the kind of know it all who most annoys me in other periods. This is a philosophical thing, for me--and I know others feel differently. My idea of reenacting is very hard on kit--combat is nothing, it's trekking and camping that'll burn stuff up. Combat is a few minutes at a few weekends, but period camping a week at a time is where you have to have three of everything and everything has to be made for hard wear--like sandals and chitons... and the internal straps on a shield. That $300 leather pouch that turns to mush in the rain (a lesson learned many years ago) and etc and etc.

And I know--I KNOW--that if we all get to Marathon, we will have a giant continuum of impressions covering a wide gammit of periods and ideas of reenacting--all of them good, and all of them different. So we'll all sit aground and admire each other's kit and watch each other's drill, claim we think ours is right--but by being together, we'll all get better. This hobby--the Greek part--needs less online foruming and more in the field reenacting.

Well, I'll get off my soap box and go cut 25 more scales...

[Magnus]

I'm pretty sure the needlefelt combat system can fix most of these woes...we had about 20 romans vs 15 or so celts at Lafe back in 2008. Worked fantastically well. We even had some celts run down a hill at us and jump on our scuta (made with 2 pieces of 1/8" luan plywood) and we were fine (that was at Fort Meigs in Ohio). I don't know much about the aspis, but as long as you're not doing that, I think the stresses of regular combat would be within the range it could handle. Especially from the weapons.

Christian, I posted on your forum about the needlefelt. Give it a read, and post your thoughts here, I think it's applicable to what you guys are looking for. We can use the June event to test things out as well.

[Kineas]

So--this is directed to Magnus, but anyone is welcome to chime in--this is remarkably like what we were doing. We built our own, and we weren't using felt. the technology was similar, though,. and i suspect you'd warrant our dorys as safe under your system.

This sounds eminently doable. However, the unavoidable issue is going to be insurance and safety. When you say "no head shots" I nod in understanding while decrying the necessity. I think you/we may find that a few veterans acting as referees keep things safer and allow the "heros" to get killed--I smile when I say this and I think we've all seen the effect.

I'm very interested. I'm even more interested if things like javelins, rock throwing, and archery can be modeled.

BUT everything Andy said applies. We can't expect that every hoplite reenactor who goes to Marathon will have a needlefelt set up. (We can if we all get together fairly quickly, but that consensus is not just around the corner, I suspect). And insurance matters.

Let me mutter a few words about Insurance for those who've read this far.

In brief--in the gunpowder era, UNITS have insurance for millions of dollars against BYSTANDER injury. A man/woman is on his/her own for personal liability when injured. If the fire burns you, if a rock falls on your head, if you fall on your sword--that's on your own policy. Our legal advice has been consistent--that to take on any more liability insurance would only invite litigation. That's the fact, jack.

But enter the world of hand-to-hand combat. If I slip and blind you--whose fault is that? There's no amount of coverage that will make up a loss of sight to any working person. Etc, etc. If we were to undertake large scale h-t-h, Americans would need liability coverage because they have to pay for medical care--at the very least.

It's different for us in Canada, Magnus. We have national healthcare, and as much as Canadians like to complain about it, it sure is good for reenactors. I don't know about the UK, Spain, Australia, or Greece. I'm having it looked into legally in Greece because I assume that every attendee will need to be covered in a blanket policy there while we do Marathon--I don't think we can expect people to show up with insurance that has meaning in Greece. My NFA policy won't cover my unit anywhere in the EU, just FYI.

Gosh, this is my night for long e-mails. Apologies. Summary--love to try it, and we'll show up in June with the kit to have spears and swords--I'll order the materials ASAP--actually, I'll wait for your Canadian supplier info! But even if I love it, and my whole unit does it--even if I sell Ft. Ticonderoga on it for 2010 (and that may take some sales, but that's another topic) we'll have a long way to go to convince people (me included) that this is the way to simulate combat at the reenactment of a major battle.

[M. Demetrius]

"Hacky sacks" make pretty good rocks, and can be thrown by hand or sling.

The main thing you folks need to do is come to a "This is the kind of weapon that will be allowed, period, no arguments, no exceptions. You don't have this, you don't play." Having said that, then you will need to make a whole bunch of extras and have them for sale at the site, or to sell beforehand and have them picked up at the site. Probably both.

Inside most Greek helmets that I have seen, there is space for racquetball goggles. That will provide quite a bit of protection for the eyes, as they're engineered to protect the eye and socket by a small, round object travelling at pretty high speed. Most of the needledfelt hits I've gotten to the head and face (declared off limits under our local rules) have been those that are deflected by the edge of my shield, or parried poorly by my hand weapon. Who was to blame? Both of us. Thrown objects, once airborn are not controllable any more, so arrows, javelins, sling stones, just follow their wind-driven trajectories. If you're in the path, you just are.

Our first generation needledfelt javelin volley, a few years ago were made with unweighted NF javelin heads sewn onto soft cane sticks. They weighed nearly nothing. We threw them, and a gust of wind came up across the field. All the javelins obediently went down wind and missed the enemy altogether. A good laugh was had by all. After that, we incorporated some weight inside the soft head. My version of that was to tightly wrap a foot of 3 strand household electrical wire (Romex) around the shaft, inside the head. Added about 1.5 oz, and greatly improved the range and accuracy, without shortchanging safety. Cane turns out not to be a great shaft, though, as it's pretty fragile.

Wood dowelling is both expensive relatively, and when it breaks, it's totally dangerously sharp. Don't use it! Bamboo is no better, as it cracks into nearly razor sharp edges when anything causes it to break. I'm not sure how to make a safe thrusting spear better than a needlefelted head attached to a commercial mop/broom handle. Most of us use 6' x 1 1/8" (1.8m x 3cm) broom/tool handles for spears. Sort of short for a dory, but --

Remember that not everybody is a craftsman, and not everybody can make their own. So it's needful to offer the quick fix, and take orders for the gear to be made available, if you set standards for construction. Even if you do, some people's stuff may not pass your inspection, so you should make something available for them to purchase. Set standards. Make the rules clear. Don't let the attendees bully the staff. Your word, especially on safety, must be clear and unchallengeable.

Now get out there and have fun. ( Hint: Cavalry, if you can charge around the enemy right flank, you can rout the phalanx.)

[Demetrios]

Interesting debate.

I think we have to sort warriors and weapons into different types.
People who are ready to fight in a realistic way, the ones who wish a mock battle and the ones who only like to parade.
Same thing for weapons : for parade with 0% damage, for battle taking the risk of reasonable "use" and true clash with full damage acceptance.

We should then sort also what kind of weapons we accept for protection and attack.
Do we take the risk of a broken shaft ? If not, do we then accept PVC shafts and at which condition ?
What about pikes ? Athenea Promakhos in Spain uses light wooden shafts (+/- 20 mm diameter) which are light (but breakable) with grey foam pikes (made of insulation material). That's what I am in favour of.
Our strategos got a foam spear hit into the throat and he could hardly speak for a few hours : so it is effective enough.
Durind a mock battle, my spear lost its foam pike, leaving the wooden shaft nude : fortunately, I noticed that and immediately stopped fighting, but I might have not done so with battle enthousiasm.
For these reasons, I am strongly in favour of special weapons dedicated to fight = no true pikes and blades just covered with foam or tennis balls etc ...

As far as shields are concerned, we have normal wooden shields (lot of work etc) but we do also have full metall shields (non historical) for true fight without any further cost and damage worries. Could these be acceptable to experiment a front line clash in an othismos operation ?

Last point : which protective "weapons" could be accepted as in any martial art fight such as racketball eyes protection (as mentionned earlier) or genitals for instance.

[ouragos]

This is an interesting debate and I am wondering whether it is wandering a bit into not reenactment but but a different area of demonstration altogether and we are talking LARP/SCA? What with goggles, foam weapons, pressed metal shields etc, etc.

Forgive me for throwing this in, but am I the only one that thinks there might be an element of varying interpretation around what reenactment actually constitutes? :? wink:

[M. Demetrius]

Of course there is. You're right. In its strictest sense, "Reenactment" takes a particular event, like a battle, for example, and seeks to portray the event as close as the means at hand will allow. "Living History" takes a slice of life from some past era, and attempts to show how things would have been done then, as closely as possible. That's about the most simple definition, but it's inaccurate, because there is so much overlap between the two.

What do you call it when a group of people get together in the recreated clothing and tools of a historical era, have a campout and stage a mock battle in the afternoon? Which is it? Hard to say. There's considerable argument from time to time here in the US about what to call ourselves. I just use "reenactment" because it's simpler, and the public sort of understands what that means. Here, "Living History" generally implies a permanent or semi-permanent site where the activitiy happens on a repeating schedule.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

First of all,an accurate phalanx as we believe it worked and fought would have only a small portion of men fighting. If 100 hoplites gathered(and this is an unlikely high estimate in my opinion),their phalanx would have a front of 16 shields,if six deep.Aren't there sixteen experienced re-enactors? Someone like me could go in the middle ranks and I know I would be thrilled to be there,with my spear held vertical and safe.
Second,if we re-enact Marathon,there will not be any hoplites in the opposite side. Ideally,only a wall of wicker shields that are not even held by another person but stand pinned to the ground,and behind them you could have any croud of re-enactors you want,even with no historical kit,and in fact you wouldn't have to really fight with them.You could recreate the battle having the flanks fleeing almost emediately after the wicker shield wall was thrown down while in the middle the hoplite front rankers continue to hit the "spara" that are supported from behind as to hold for some time. After the flanks have fled,the phalanx flanks will have to perform a maneuver to sarround the persian center. Now this might have been done in a rather inorderly fashion in reality,but I wouldn't suggest so in the event. To perform this maneuver at least some trainning and coordination ought to be done before the actual show. In any case,it wouldn't unsuitable to have only a limited number of men allowed to use their "weapons". The casualties for the Athenian and Plataians mentioned by Herodotus are about 2% I think?
Now,i find it more important for all of us re-enactors to EXPERIMENT all together rather than just organise a spectacle. Spectacles are great,but imagine that we've never gathered more than 25 hoplites together,and that number was achieved only by one single group,in Spain. Phalanx drill have to be tested in all possible ways,every theory on halving the depth,locking shields,raising spears etc. The even would have to be held for some days so there is time for everything. Of course I understand that to have such an event supported,you need spectators to be there and actually spend some money! But alas,it would be such a pity to gather more hoplites than ever before and not have them test all those that we're debating about for years! Battle? You know better about safety and insurance issues,but you could still have only some volunteer re-enactors fight phalanx against phalanx,again with just the front rankers allowed to strike. How about an othismos test? Well,some volunteers could probably test if it can be done,without any weapons in hand? Or just decide there that it's too dangerous.
I also believe that every small group must have a LEADER ,just like in reality. And everyone who attends having understood that he's there only to do what his leader tells them,which will have been scripted and made clear from the beginning. For example,I should be ready to accept it emediately if the leader of my stichos told us that none of us is allowed to carry a weapon except for him. Front rankers would be easier to be selected from each re-enactment group or individuals.
Anyway,just some thoughts and how I would like it be. Please tell me if I'm saying something that cannot be done or is none senSe.
Khairete
Giannis

[Kineas]

Giannis--I agree with every word. And the drill, and the experiment, are the best things we'll do.

And Andy, I have to separate two things. I'm interested in trying the neadelfelt system--but note that I keep saying "simulate" and that's entirely for "reenactment." Like Giannis, I'd like to recreate the battle. I think we can, but even to make it last 10 minutes--and again, writing scenarios for these things and teaching reenactors to carry them out is routine--even to make it last ten minutes will take some remarkable coordination. And I agree (ahagin) with Giannis--we need time and more time just to practice.

But... I'd like to be able to do something like needle felt. That's not so much for Marathon--unless a consensus supported it--but for other venues where we can practice tactics. I have ot say, and many reenactors may not have experienced this--we've been able to experiment with real tactical systems, evaluate them, and provide useful and meaningful feedback to scholars. If you have a copy of Matt Springer's "With Zeal and Bayonets Only" we've tried the tactics of his book on the "recreated battlefield" with crushing success. Yes, it took superior discipline--but my point its that "gaming" or "mock combat" can provide data points that can inform, just as thoroughly as correct camping procedures, good period kit, correct fabrics and fasteners, food, dance, or any other cultural lifeway are essential parts of "reenactment." In fact, battlefield behavior relates to intellectual activity in nearly every case.

There's broad continuum of re-creation. It's all viable and it is all as pertinent and every kind is as valid as the other kinds. The SCA is not the most creditable of history organizations, but all mock combat is not without utility. And--let me be clear--those folks who'd rather not are still reenactors, just as those folks who don't eat the food or spend a week living in their kit are still reenactors--and vice versa.

To hold a large event we'll have to support all kinds of reenactment. We have to make it as appealing as possible,and we have to offer the time and space to practice. I started this thread to build a consensus about whether we should, indeed reenact Marathon (ie, have a battle reenactment) or whether we should offer more static displays. For myself, I'll continue experimenting with various combat systems, both "game" systems like needle felt and "simulation" systems that offer no competitive spirit but merely are safe and look right from 50 meters. But as I said in my first post--as we head toward Marathon--we need to think about these things so that people can arrive equipped and insured to a basic standard--and so no one arrives and leaves disappointed.

[ouragos]

I accept all that has been said and forgive me, I am not trying to be negative, but I felt there might have been a bit of pulling in different directions and an email discussion can be fraught with misunderstanding / interpretation.... so to be clear, I am on 'your' (collective) side

Of course, this is not helped by the fact that the discussion is conceptual, as in we are not discussing its application for an arranged date/event. That, in itself, can lead to differing ways of thinking.

Living history / re-enactment, well we have the same debated over here. But these are also peppered by discussions around authenticity (if such a thing truly exists - a discussion in itself) and in the main, be it an arena display of 'whatever' or a static display, the general concensus (not universal) is to strive to be as realistic in the portrayals as you can be.

From this, the point I was trying to allude to earlier was that a 'battle' scenario does not need actual contact, or a high level of contact to provide a good (realistic) demonstration for both observers and participants alike... and there are ways of introducing degrees of the same as well. Indeed, there are established ways of achieving contact with bladed weapons, as many, many groups have demonstrated. The skills, techniques and experience exist. But to do this there also needs to be the training and equipment.

Now - if the objective is to simply give disparate people the opportunity to poke at each other with sticks in a pastiche of ancient Greek warfare (a gross simplification so forgive me, but I am not tring to be flippant) then the felt/tennis ball or whatever route will, I am sure, provide an experience that participants will enjoy. It will also help allow for multiple participants of varying experience to be included.

If, however, the objective is to provide demonstration through reenactment (and my interpretation of this does include the 'striving for authenticity' discussion) then that is a different thing altogether... and there are those who would consider that the former is a totally different thing to their perception of what reenactment involves.

All to do with objectives and perception really - and I have probably said far too much on this now so I promise I will shut up :lol: :lol:

[M. Demetrius]

What about both? A large as possible battle with "safe" weapons, and a close to the crowd demo with sharper, metal weapons, along with narration, to explain what would have been going on? I think I'd do the latter first, so the people would have been primed to see in their minds' eye what was happening on the field.

That should either please all the participants, or none, I guess. :? lol:

[Kineas]

Andy, my sense is that you comments represent a solid sense of what many reenactors want.

So--let's divide "reenactment" and "mock combat' into separate discussions. I think that what I'm hearing is that all reenactors--all potential attendees--will want to participate in a "reenactment" which may well be along the lines Giannis proposed--(in fact, I feel as if Giannis has been inside my head, right down to the wicker shields). And I suspect many--but not all--will want to participate in some experimental archaeology aka drill that we should film and sell by the ounce to scholars...

But combat may be for a limited few, or half, or none. It is clear (I add this because I have some side PMs) that some people find the idea appalling and some find it wonderful. So... shall we go to two threads? Shall we discuss ideas for "reenactment" with our full kit and dorys/blades on this thread, and pick up a mock combat thread elsewhere?

[PMBardunias]

On a mass scale individual fighting is largely irrelevant to recreation of phalanx combat, since any outcome can be simulated. What I mean is if you are concerned with recreating othismos, then the death of front and second rankers can be assigned a priori, rather than come about through dangerous combat. For example, you could assign some men in the front ranks to "die" to the sound of a horn, more to the next sounding, etc. The death of these men will act to disrupt the ranks in a natural manner. If they fall and cover with the aspis they will still get stepped on, so that will have to depend on how risk averse you are. They could just stand up and not push. If I am right, the men should be able to breathe if they use their aspis properly- if I'm wrong you'd better unpack quickly! Assigning "deaths" lets you recreate interesting instances of local superiority. This in essence is what I would do were I modelling this on a computer.

Recreating the most basic othismos would take almost no prior training because the technique emerges from the aspis and the natural formation of a crowd. You could then get fancy by training the men to move together. I'd love to attend this, it may force me to get myself a panoply.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Do get yourself a panoply anyway! You didn't mention the third posibility,that the men will be able to breathe even with the shields overlapping the way I'm saying(No,I'm not starting the debate. It's just one more thing to test). Wouldn't it be ideal to have two formations oppesed pushing with their shields overlapping in different way? I'm so curious about such things and these are what I want to test. Then I would love to participate in a recreation of the battle,in any way it will be scripted,with contact or no contact.
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

I agree, I'd like to see the staggered overlap as well.