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Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas
Quote:Type and yoke quilted and segmented.
This example coming from ancient pottery was reinforced with metal.
What? How can you tell from pottery whether something is made of metal or not and how do you know rivets are being represented? A good example is the Terracotta warriors. The plates are depicted with small dots and people have been interpreting them as rivets for years. We know know that they are small patches of lacing. On top of that people thought that the plates were made of metal but 12 examples were later found at Leigudun. When assembled they look exactly like the terracotta examples. IIRC all 12 of them are made of lacquered leather, not metal.

On top of that, if the illustration is supposed to be representing segmented plate they would not be aligned vertically, it removes any flexibility at the waist. They would be horizontally aligned.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Paul, I would be very doubtful that those rather randomly painted dots were meant to represent rivets. Of more interest is the fact that the abdomen seems to be made up of, or re-inforced by, rectangular panels.

Dan's point should provide a salutary warning to making assumptions about iconographical representations ! :wink:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Dan & Paullus i take it that your saying if an item is not found so we have a Hard example ,all is speculation ,& that iconographical representations are of little or no value as we have no way of knowing the material used to create the original item shown or whether the artist has stylized whatever he has depicted ,the same then with Ancient literature some writers are perhaps more reliable than others
Hannibal ad portas ! Dave Bartlett . " War produces many stories of fiction , some of which are told until they are believed to be true." U S Grant
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Quote:Dan & Paullus i take it that your saying if an item is not found so we have a Hard example ,all is speculation ,& that iconographical representations are of little or no value as we have no way of knowing the material used to create the original item shown or whether the artist has stylized whatever he has depicted ,the same then with Ancient literature some writers are perhaps more reliable than others
Iconographial evidence is next to useless since it can always be interpreted multiple ways. There is no point using it at all unless there is supporting evidence from other sources. If you want a classic example of this folly then read D'Amato's book.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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I would concur with Dan's view - iconographical evidence alone requires pure guesswork in its interpretation all too often, and is generally open to more than one interpretation ( unless exceptionally, it is something like a detailed carving of mail, which is fairly unmistakable - but even then there is no way of knowing whether it is intended to portray bronze or iron! ).

As Dan says, only with supporting evidence from elsewhere can one start to interpret with any certainty........and even then......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace, ODES
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" -GeorgeC Scott as General George S. Patton
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
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May I remind you that I used the word "perhaps" and not "certainly".

The image provided by Paul B was part of the basis for the reconstruction.
In this form (before the metal addition) the crossbow shot test was conducted.

Agree with Dan on the flexibility issue but in tight phalanx formation armor flexibility was not the prime issue (muscled cuirass).
More "composite armor" interpretations will be presented in the future along with various tests and the recorded experience of various individuals

The armor in its finished form will be subjected to further tests.
It will also be tested as horseman's armor by members of the Hellenic Horseback Archery society.

No one can be sure of the accuracy of this interpretation.
We believe it is:
A Plausible. - subject to interpretation
B shot resistant (tested)
C Not uncomfortable in the context of phalanx use (partly tested)
D Metal was not necessary ( or not even used) but very possible if an individual wanted it.
(We added metal mostly for seeing the behavior of this interpretation).

I respect all opinions but after testing the thing I have more questions rather than answers.

Kind regards
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Quote:The plates are depicted with small dots and people have been interpreting them as rivets for years. We know know that they are small patches of lacing. On top of that people thought that the plates were made of metal but 12 examples were later found at Leigudun. When assembled they look exactly like the terracotta examples. IIRC all 12 of them are made of lacquered leather, not metal.

Laced or riveted, the point is that something inflexible, metal, laquered leather, is being attached in some manner to a flexible base material or shell(That assumes that this interpretation of panels is correct, which it may well not be).

You know of that 2002 dissertation on Scale armors that showed no loss in protection when bronze scales were mixed with rawhide, I saw you refer to it on another forum when I was trying to find a copy. Do you have access to it?


Quote:On top of that, if the illustration is supposed to be representing segmented plate they would not be aligned vertically, it removes any flexibility at the waist. They would be horizontally aligned.

Perhaps not, the T-Y largely follows the form of the old style bronze cuirasse which obviously was inflexible. The T-Y is high enough on the waist to allow bending in the middle without flexible panels. Even if these panels were stiffened textile, they would retard bending if too long.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Quote:
Quote:On top of that, if the illustration is supposed to be representing segmented plate they would not be aligned vertically, it removes any flexibility at the waist. They would be horizontally aligned.

Perhaps not, the T-Y largely follows the form of the old style bronze cuirasse which obviously was inflexible. The T-Y is high enough on the waist to allow bending in the middle without flexible panels. Even if these panels were stiffened textile, they would retard bending if too long.

In a much later context, many of the coats-of-plates from Visby had a similar vertical alignment. For example, armours 8-15 all have long vertically-aligned plates for the lower torso. Perhaps not good for bending at the waist, but better for wrapping the armor around the body and requiring less precise shaping of the plates?
-Michael
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Quote:Perhaps not good for bending at the waist, but better for wrapping the armor around the body and requiring less precise shaping of the plates?

We should also note that you can overlap the plates on one side and retain the segmented look we see on vases.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Quote:We should also note that you can overlap the plates on one side and retain the segmented look we see on vases.

We missed that idea. But there will be more reconstructions hopefully. IMF want stay forever or so we hope :twisted:

Quote:.
You know of that 2002 dissertation on Scale armors that showed no loss in protection when bronze scales were mixed with rawhide, I saw you refer to it on another forum when I was trying to find a copy. Do you have access to it?

I will ask our armorer. He has reconstructed byzantine armors by alternating metal scales with hide stripes as they appear in hagiography
Actually arroww bounced on them at the test!!!!!!

Kind regards
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Quote: You know of that 2002 dissertation on Scale armors that showed no loss in protection when bronze scales were mixed with rawhide, I saw you refer to it on another forum when I was trying to find a copy. Do you have access to it?
Another test by the same author (Hulit) definitely DID show a difference between all bronze scale and alternate bronze-rawhide. I can't remember the details but recall that the latter used parameters that were closeer to what would be encountered in battle. Hulit summarises these tests in Malloy's book "The Cutting Edge". Hulit's PhD can also be downloaded here.
http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?did= ... hos.247577
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Some of our work. More to come!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCKIrI9IkZA

Kind regards
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Very nice Stefanos!
_____________________________________________________
Mark Hayes

"The men who once dwelled beneath the crags of Mt Helicon, the broad land of Thespiae now boasts of their courage"
Philiades

"So now I meet my doom. Let me at least sell my life dearly and have a not inglorius end, after some feat of arms that shall come to the ears of generations still unborn"
Hektor, the Iliad
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If those torso plates don't overlap then you are going to have problems when you test this configuration against spear thrusts and arrows when they lodge in the gaps. This is why historical plate armour almost always overlaps. I've also never seen an example of historical armour with long plates aligned vertically like this unless they were articulated with mail (i.e. "mail and plates" construction).
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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(03-07-2009, 09:18 AM)Dan Howard Wrote:
Quote:Xenophon of Carduchi bows penetrating first a Spartan Hoplite's shield, then Tube-and-Yoke corselet ( spolas - please don't raise that old chestnut about spolas not being armour....why would Xenophon think it to be  significant that the arrow penetrated it, if it were not some form of armour/protection?)
Probably for the same reason that Gerald of Wales mentioned it when a Welsh arrrow penetrated both mail and undergarment to pin a Norman's leg to his horse. Why can not this garment be the equivalent of the spolas? Mail underpadding was not thick enough to provide any protection in its own right and was never worn as such. A different padded garment was worn as standalone armour. It was considerably thicker and tailored differently. I'm still waiting to see anything to demonstrate that the spolas was intended to be worn as standalone armour.

Do you think that a spolas could have been a decorative covering over quilted linen?
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