Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas

[John Conyard]

In the past I have often started a lecture about how hard it is to recreate an impression from the late Roman army, compared to recreating an American Civil War uniform. Surviving garments, quartermaster records and photos showing how gear was worn in the field has always seemed an incredible basis for research.

I'm beginning to consider recreating the tube and yoke as the re-enactor equivalent of rocket science.

However the positive aspects of this thread make for excellent reading, and the sources quoted are widening my knowledge immeasurably. Please keep up the good work.

[Kineas]

Come to Marathon, John!

[PMBardunias]

This is another image that makes me wonder about the T-Y being equivalent to the linothorax. Its vest-like shape fits with quilted armors commonly seen in other cultures. We only see the back, so it could have shoulder fastenings, but clearly it is not a standard T-Y. If something like this existed alongside a leather T-Y then both types are accounted for without equating them. The level of detail is so high n this vase that I doubt it is an artistic mistake.

Also, this is my favorite crest! And my post is on the right thread.

[John Conyard]

I'd love to go to Marathon. It would be a dream, and I'm a firm believer in making dreams come true. Get some horses there and it would even be better. We could do some realistic combat training with bodies lying everywhere. :lol:

However it depends on dates and when I'm working. I'm self employed and a day not working is a day not earning. And I do like to maximise income.

I started reviewing the Greek kit we use for the business last July. All our time periods are continously improved as a sort of rolling programme. It normally doesn't take long. However, to get the Greek kit where I want it for this period is taking a very long time. Much of it I'm having to make myself. But it's a very enjoyable challenge.

Back to topic, at first I didn't warm to the idea of alum tanned leather. I think I suspected that we would all advocate what we were used to working in. A 18th century re-enactor would be used to alum tanned leather. I'm used to working with vegetable tanned leather. Bolied vegetable tanned leather is very very tough. I've spent a few days in various lamellar armours this week. They are incredibly tough. But having read abit about leather production lately, I am coming around to alum tanned leather. Due to it's availability, and it's colour. Of course this is my highly subjective opinion, and I'm open to influence.

[Kineas]

I'm with you John. Just for the record, I'm suspicious that I, a rev war reenactor coming late to classics, am in favor of a major peice of 18th c. technology in classics.

I saw it, too. I'm researching articles on leather production--and fabric productions... a report will be forthcoming.

[nikolaos]

Interesting point. Does anyone know if the surviving leather has been analyzed to determining tanning method or evidence of subsequent treatment (boiling in water or wax)?

Also, Paul B, what's the estimated date on that fascinating vase?

Have fun!
Cole

[PMBardunias]

Also, Paul B, what's the estimated date on that fascinating vase?

I do not, but its at the Louvre, so I can probably re-find it at some point. The rest of the vase is interesting as well.

I don't know if I am the first to propose that the leather was Alum tawed, but I did so on here a while back after examining the properties of different types of leather and the widespread ancient use of alum for everything from medicine to fire proofing textiles. It was of course the whiteness that first attracted me.

One thing that I came across at the time is that Alum tawed leather can easily be made more supple through working, but conversely, it can be made very stiff. Evidently you can wash it out until it basically becomes raw hide. I have very little experience with tanning, so this is something that perhaps others can determine. Unfortunately I did not save most of the references I was reading at the time, so I can't point you to them.

Because it is tawed, not tanned, I would imagine some waterproof coating would be beneficial, but Christian recently showed some that wore quite well. I also do not know the effect of prolonged contact of Alum against sweat-wetted flesh. With some of the glues and resins that have been suggested for the idea of gluing I would expect a not insignificant level of allergic reaction.

[nikolaos]

Just to follow up on this...

I have a seven year old pair of white latigo belts. They have seen approximately 180 days of service, and only been cleaned using documentable techniques. They have worn differently depending on the the type of wear areas have been subjected to. Areas that have not suffered a great deal of friction have tended to harden and stiffen, while areas that undergo friction or torque have softened and grown more supple.

That, and they haven't been white for years unless I pipe clay them

Just an anecdote for consideration.

[PMBardunias]

Evidently, aside from Alum Tawing OR Tanning, there is a third option. From the Leather tanning & tanning technology handbook (google book search):

[Kineas]

I may start a thread on leather. I just found a really excellent source, all very nicely documented by quotes from Classical Greek literature.

"Greek Shoes in the Classical Period," by Alexis Bryant, published as an article in "Harvard Studies in Classical Philology," Vol 10 (1899) p. 57-110.

I've been looking at this subject for five months, and this one article about doubled my knowledge. Man, those Victorians really read Greek.

Perhaps most important, he presents quite a bit of literary evidence for vegetable tanned leather with a golden brown "bronze" appearance. He brings to our attention the works of Theophrastus, whose book "On Plants" (3.9.1) includes all sorts of useful information on tanning and it's popularity in Athens.

Theophrastus also apparently mentions alum-tanning in another book, but I haven't chased the reference down. And I'm going to introduce an element of doubt here, after a telephone call to an alum tanner in Scotland, who says that my "tawed" leather isn't really tawed, it is vegetable tanned and then alum has been used to whiten it. This, by the way, is probably what the folks using both alum and gall were doing above in Paul's example.

Why is everything so complicated? D D

[John Conyard]

Workwise I'm currently firmly rooted in the 4th century AD at present, but am sneaking off to this thread for relaxation.

I'm looking forward to going through Kineas's reading list. I did spent an hour trying to find a supplier of alum tanned leather and failed. But I didn't try too hard, and must try again.

I think there are many ways of making leather armour, from flaking it to laminating it, boiling it etc etc. However some ways seem easier than others.

Laminating leather, using it's natural properties to "glue" layers together, seems an easy option. A new armour in my equipment room makes use of solid leather scales, and in some areas laminated leather scales made up of thinner pieces of leather. They work very well. And boiled leather panels applied to a leather backing also seems easy to achieve. But in the back of my mind I consider if I would be happy wearing these solutions while somebody stabbed me with my 1.5 kg spear.........

[Paullus Scipio]

In considering the purpose/use of a particular piece of armour - body armour in this instance - we should recognise that as with modern tank armour, 'protection' isn't the only factor....there is weight, mobility, heat, fatigue, cost,available materials etc. all inter-linked....

In particular, for a Hoplite, his primary protection is his shield, augmented by helmet above and (for at least front rankers?) greaves below. Thus equipped cap-a-pied ( head-to-foot), to borrow a mediaeval term, he is fit to stand in the line and even in the front rank. Body armour is definitely secondary,( as evidenced by the fact that some/many did not wear it, throughout the 'Hoplite era') and need not be 'weapon proof', and other factors will tend to pre-dominate. It is because there is always a 'trade-off' that no Greek defence was 'weapon-proof', as anecdotal evidence from Xenophon of Carduchi bows penetrating first a Spartan Hoplite's shield, then Tube-and-Yoke corselet ( spolas - please don't raise that old chestnut about spolas not being armour....why would Xenophon think it to be significant that the arrow penetrated it, if it were not some form of armour/protection?); or the Spartan King Agesilaus being wounded 'through his armour' etc, etc.
This anecdotal evidence is supported by modern studies such as Blyth's thesis "Effectiveness of Greek Armour against Persian Arrows"....

[nikolaos]

Paul,

I think you miss one of the most important factors armour provides besides protection: morale. Armour provides confidence to the man who wears it, first by causing to stop sweating the "little things" that an unarmoured man must concern himself with, and providing a sense of confidence that he can take some risks that an unarmoured man cannot.

Consider, having no helmet would make you think twice about letting your head show in the front couple of ranks...

Have fun!
Cole

[Dan Howard]

Xenophon of Carduchi bows penetrating first a Spartan Hoplite's shield, then Tube-and-Yoke corselet ( spolas - please don't raise that old chestnut about spolas not being armour....why would Xenophon think it to be significant that the arrow penetrated it, if it were not some form of armour/protection?)

Probably for the same reason that Gerald of Wales mentioned it when a Welsh arrrow penetrated both mail and undergarment to pin a Norman's leg to his horse. Why can not this garment be the equivalent of the spolas? Mail underpadding was not thick enough to provide any protection in its own right and was never worn as such. A different padded garment was worn as standalone armour. It was considerably thicker and tailored differently. I'm still waiting to see anything to demonstrate that the spolas was intended to be worn as standalone armour.

[PMBardunias]

And I'm going to introduce an element of doubt here, after a telephone call to an alum tanner in Scotland, who says that my "tawed" leather isn't really tawed, it is vegetable tanned and then alum has been used to whiten it.

I worried about this because from what you have shared the alum leather seemed too "good" to me. Too well tanned, not subject to wear. My understanding is that alum tawed leather should be somewhere between what you have and rawhide. The only Alum tawed leather I can find is for parchment- and even that may be tanned as well for all I know.

It would be facinating to play with the relative amounts of tawing and tanning to see what range of stiffnesses and durability can be achieved. Someone needs to just try the process for us.

As to why they wore armour lets not forget fashion- a reason that many shed armour as well. In many ways the armour makes the man.