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Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas
#68
Quote:Sean Manning wrote:
That's a leap in logic. Herodotus describes Persian iron and bronze helmets, neither of which would be strange to Greeks except that the cut was outlandish. So Htd., Xenophon, and Plutarch could mention foreign linen armour because linen armour was strange, or because the cut was strange, or the decoration on the armour was remarkable, or because barbarian soldiers are strange. I believe Herodotus mentions a few examples of barbarians leather armour too although I can't find one in the Catalogue of Nations.
I think your comment would be true, if each example, particularly Herodotus, were examined in isolation. If we adopt a holistic approach however and look at the whole picture, we consistently see linen armour described as Asiatic, and never worn by Greeks, except Plutarch’s quilted example worn by Alexander, which he is careful to explain is a captured Persian example. As to the possibility of the ‘cut being strange’, it is apparent from the depictions we have that Persian ‘Tube-and-Yoke’ armour is usually of the same or similar cut to Greek, and where it differs, for example Xenophon’s linen cuirassed Chalybes, who have twisted fronds instead of pteruges, we are usually told so.

Like you, I can’t find any references to ‘leather’ armour in Herodotus’ catalogue, other than leather helmets ( along with wicker and wooden helmets) and rawhide shields, though Caspians are described as’ dressed in leather jackets/coats of skin’ ( not spolades) and the Libyans are described as ‘clothed in leather’/’equipped in leather’

Quote:Dan wrote:
Well said Sean. This is a perfect example of only putting forward one possibility based on one's agenda. Lawyers need to do this but it is not a particularly useful trait for a historian.
That’s rather unfair and a personal jibe, and I don’t have an ‘agenda’ other than to put forward what I consider to be the most likely hypothesis, backed by evidence. If I don’t put forward every single possibility, it is because it would be tedious to cover every possibility and then explain why one is most probable, so I leave it to others to put forward an alternate viewpoint.
Quote:Never have I said that the Greeks did not use leather armour. Always I've said that there is no evidence for it. Recently I've amended that to agree that leather scale was likely worn. Regarding the so-called linothorax - when the iconographical, textual and physical evidence is taken together then we can definitely say that the Greeks used a "tube and yoke" style armour

…one can agree the evidence supports this ….

Quote:and that the most likely material from which it was made was multiple layers of linen
….but not this, for which neither you nor others have put forward any credible evidence…
Quote:especially if the Patas report agrees with what we have been told by witnesses.

What ‘Patas report’? We have been told by Mr Saltimberi that it won’t be published for “at least 50 years”.
"witnesses?” – apparently, all we have is rumour and hearsay – Mr Saltimberi heard it from Mr D’Amato who heard it from…?
In any event, even if true in every detail, the existence of linen armour in 1200 BC or earlier is nothing to do with the construction of ‘Tube-and-Yoke’ corselets 700 years later !!!

Quote:Even if it is leather backed scale, how can this possibly be classed as leather armour? As I said earlier, if attaching metal plates to some leather can be called "leather armour" then so can the lorica segmentata, coat of plates, brigandine, etc. It is fairly evident that the metal plates perform the active role while the backing is simply to hold the structure together. It is metal armour regardless of whether the foundation is made of textiles or leather.

To a degree, I agree with Dan here. Greek Tube-and-Yoke corselets seem to have started being reinforced around the time of the Persian Wars, but partially, with scales and ultimately fully covered in metal scales; at least judging by Scythian and Thracian examples. Dan is right to call this latter ‘metal armour’, but if of ‘Tube-and-Yoke’ cut I would still define it as a variant of a ‘Tube-and-Yoke’ corselet. It is a question of degree, I guess, as to when ‘a scale reinforced corselet’ becomes ‘a metal scale corselet’.
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Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Re: Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas - by Paullus Scipio - 02-26-2009, 03:14 AM

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