02-26-2009, 02:36 PM
Wow--miss a night and you miss the party!
So...
First, I used to work in criminal forensics a little, and I guarantee that we could test all those scales with various current technologies and establish whether linen or leather was the backing. No need to speculate. Get some graduate student on it.
Paul, I won't dispute your disputation of Alcaeus--he's an historical figure, and he lived somewhere around 600BC. I think we can agree on that. And it is hard enough to interpret what an artist "meant" even in a modern context. So I think we have to take Alcaeus as read--it's a stretch to lump him with Homeric authors when he's describing other equipment we know to be contemporary. Paul, as you know, I'm no fan of the linen cuirass--but fair is fair!
FYI ( a little off topic) I've posted 54 new images from the ROM on facebook if anyone wants to see them. This is by far the most interesting, to me.
![[Image: n681611203_2156736_9152.jpg]](http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2476/145/122/681611203/n681611203_2156736_9152.jpg)
This is an archaic hoplite of 550-525 on the rondo of an Attic/Corinthian black figure (not red figure) cup. He's naked and hiding behind his shield.
I think that it is also worth mentioning two very minor "factoids' that may have bearing on this debate. Both are so common that I've always ignored them. The issue is leather armor, and there's one stock figure who wears it constantly...Herakles.
It was only when looking at Archaic red ware at point blank range that I realized that Herakles is wearing a linen chitoniskos (a garment I associate with "under armour") under his lion skin, or that, in the best example, his lion skin is very reminiscent of a "thorax." And I'll be the first to note that this is in NO way conclusive--there's a nice archaic statue of Herakles with a lion's head helmet, and that was clearly meant to be bronze. Herakles is so mythical as to defy "normalcy." But--it is worth noting that Herakles and his lion skin, belted over a chitoniskos with the paws coming over the shoulder like the yoke on a thorax, is a possible "armour meme" (I love all this jargon) that could refer to hide armour.
Even if it is not, I'd also note that I THINK we all accept that quivers were leather--yes? And Herakles quiver is almost always decorated in a very similar war to the "linothorax" art of, say, the Achilles Vase. In the"Berlin Painter's" Herakles vase (Antikenmuseum Basel Inv. B5 456) the quiver has both stitching lines incised, and painted decoration that is executed in very much the same manner as that associated with the armour. (and even if you don't buy my argument, it is the best depiction of a Greek quiver ever, if you want to build one).
Friends, I don't suppose for a moment that this is conclusive, nor that anyone will be convinced, but the compiling of apparently trivial evidence and counter evidence is the only way that we can arrive at any consensus.
So...
First, I used to work in criminal forensics a little, and I guarantee that we could test all those scales with various current technologies and establish whether linen or leather was the backing. No need to speculate. Get some graduate student on it.
Paul, I won't dispute your disputation of Alcaeus--he's an historical figure, and he lived somewhere around 600BC. I think we can agree on that. And it is hard enough to interpret what an artist "meant" even in a modern context. So I think we have to take Alcaeus as read--it's a stretch to lump him with Homeric authors when he's describing other equipment we know to be contemporary. Paul, as you know, I'm no fan of the linen cuirass--but fair is fair!
FYI ( a little off topic) I've posted 54 new images from the ROM on facebook if anyone wants to see them. This is by far the most interesting, to me.
This is an archaic hoplite of 550-525 on the rondo of an Attic/Corinthian black figure (not red figure) cup. He's naked and hiding behind his shield.
I think that it is also worth mentioning two very minor "factoids' that may have bearing on this debate. Both are so common that I've always ignored them. The issue is leather armor, and there's one stock figure who wears it constantly...Herakles.
It was only when looking at Archaic red ware at point blank range that I realized that Herakles is wearing a linen chitoniskos (a garment I associate with "under armour") under his lion skin, or that, in the best example, his lion skin is very reminiscent of a "thorax." And I'll be the first to note that this is in NO way conclusive--there's a nice archaic statue of Herakles with a lion's head helmet, and that was clearly meant to be bronze. Herakles is so mythical as to defy "normalcy." But--it is worth noting that Herakles and his lion skin, belted over a chitoniskos with the paws coming over the shoulder like the yoke on a thorax, is a possible "armour meme" (I love all this jargon) that could refer to hide armour.
Even if it is not, I'd also note that I THINK we all accept that quivers were leather--yes? And Herakles quiver is almost always decorated in a very similar war to the "linothorax" art of, say, the Achilles Vase. In the"Berlin Painter's" Herakles vase (Antikenmuseum Basel Inv. B5 456) the quiver has both stitching lines incised, and painted decoration that is executed in very much the same manner as that associated with the armour. (and even if you don't buy my argument, it is the best depiction of a Greek quiver ever, if you want to build one).
Friends, I don't suppose for a moment that this is conclusive, nor that anyone will be convinced, but the compiling of apparently trivial evidence and counter evidence is the only way that we can arrive at any consensus.
Qui plus fait, miex vault.
