Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas

[MeinPanzer]

I'm still waiting to see anything to demonstrate that the spolas was intended to be worn as standalone armour.

Pollux's Onomastikon, s.v. Spolas (VII.70, posted earlier by Paul in this very thread):

'Spolas de thorax ek dermatos, kata tous omous ephaptomenos, hos Xenophon ephe "kai spolas anti thorakos"'
'The spolas is a thorax of leather, which hangs from the shoulders, so that Xenophon says "and the spolas
instead of the thorax."'

Why does this description always seem to go ignored in these discussions? Pollux was not a military man but was very aware of his ancient literature, so I think he is to be trusted.

[nikolaos]

Thanks Rueben! Pollux has been a good source for recreating games too...

Cole

[Matthew Amt]

'Spolas de thorax ek dermatos...'

Just a minor semantic question, does "dermatos" translate best as "tanned leather", or "rawhide", or more like "something generally taken from the skin of a dead animal"? I know Dan and I discussed a similar topic in Homer's description of shields, and came to the conclusion that it was most likely rawhide, but I don't *think* the term was "dermatos" in that case, don't remember for sure.

Have to admit that I'm starting to lean towards the tawed leather spolas interpretation of the tube-and-yoke thingy. And I'm not loving that, cuz I already have a nice glued linen one!! But hey, good research does tend to make us sit back, throw our hands up, and say "We were all wrong!"

Please don't hate me, Dan! I still love you.... And I do still think the Mycenaeans were using quilted linen, but that's a whole different discussion.

Keep the historical citations flying, please! You guys have tons more good stuff at your fingertips than I'll ever manage to find, much less retain, so I appreciate all the knowledge.

Khairete,

Matthew

[MeinPanzer]

'Spolas de thorax ek dermatos...'

Just a minor semantic question, does "dermatos" translate best as "tanned leather", or "rawhide", or more like "something generally taken from the skin of a dead animal"? I know Dan and I discussed a similar topic in Homer's description of shields, and came to the conclusion that it was most likely rawhide, but I don't *think* the term was "dermatos" in that case, don't remember for sure.

"Derma" (genitive "dermatos") is a very generic term, and can be translated no more precisely than "leather." It has the literal meaning of skin, and does not really reflect upon the method of preparation.

Have to admit that I'm starting to lean towards the tawed leather spolas interpretation of the tube-and-yoke thingy. And I'm not loving that, cuz I already have a nice glued linen one!! But hey, good research does tend to make us sit back, throw our hands up, and say "We were all wrong!"

Please don't hate me, Dan! I still love you.... And I do still think the Mycenaeans were using quilted linen, but that's a whole different discussion.

Keep the historical citations flying, please! You guys have tons more good stuff at your fingertips than I'll ever manage to find, much less retain, so I appreciate all the knowledge.

Pollux's definition, though I have not checked it myself, is really the clincher for me. It pretty much addresses all the argumentative points in these sorts of threads: it explicitly states that it is a piece of armour and not some sort of undergarment; that it "hangs from the shoulders," pretty clearly pointing to the method of securing such cuirasses with shoulder yokes; and that it was worn alongside other, most likely metallic forms of armour. Furthermore, his reference to Xenophon (and the general nature of his work as a dictionary for Attic words and terms) indicates that he is referring to exactly the period under discussion - the 5th and 4th centuries BC - and not to the meaning of the word in some other period.

[Dan Howard]

I'm looking at the book now and can't find the relevant passage using the cited reference (VII.70).
http://books.google.com/books?id=v8cNAAAAIAAJ

Edit: found it on page 291
??????????? ?????, ?????? ?? ?^???^ ?? ????????, ???? ???? ????? ???????????, ?? ??????? ??? «??? ?????? ???? ???????.» ???????? ?' ????? ???????? ????????

Is Pollux citing from Aristophanes or Xenophon?

[griffin]

As far as I can tell.
He is quoting a series of authors about the word usage.

First off is Aristophanes, whom Pollux cites on the line just be Aristophanes' name. It's something about being wrapped in five animal skin coverlets. There is a full stop after Aristophanes.
Then there is the spolas is a thorax from derma, and within the same grammatical period the As Xenophon says.

Then the last part of the paragraph contains a citation from Sophocles who calls this sort of garment a "Libyan" as Libyans were leopard skin garments which are similiar.

[MeinPanzer]

Michael is right. Here is how I would translate it and its previous sentence:

"The goats'-hair cloak garment may be (made from) a prepared hide: being wrapped up in five goats'-hair cloaks, Aristophanes says. The spolas is a thorax from skin, hanging from the shoulders, as Xenophon said, "and spolas instead of thorax." Sophocles calls it Libyan: A Libyan spolas, a leopardskin."

Incidentally, the previous entry contains something of an answer to your question about words for treated versus untreated leather. A diphthera is a "prepared hide" or a "tanned skin," which is opposed to a derris, which is an "undressed hide."

[Dan Howard]

So if we believe Pollux's citation of Xenophon, one definition of the spolas would seem to be a tube and yoke style armor made from animal skin (rawhide/leather). This is excellent. Consider me converted

[MeinPanzer]

So if we believe Pollux's citation of Xenophon, one definition of the spolas would seem to be a tube and yoke style armor made from animal skin (rawhide/leather). This is excellent. Consider me converted

Again, Pollux's definition probably only refers to the word's use in the 5th and 4th centuries BC, but this is exactly the period in which there is little other evidence and this debate often becomes most heated and conjectural. Paul posted this quote some time ago, but it always seems to disappear in these discussions. We should really get at the very least a single post summarizing all the literary and archaeological evidence known so that whenever this discussion inevitably pops up again, it can be pointed to.

[Paullus Scipio]

Cole wrote:

I think you miss one of the most important factors armour provides besides protection: morale.

Quite right, of course, Cole - as is Paul B's point about fashion. There will doubtless be other factors too, but my point really was just that armour is seldom designed to be 'weapon proof' for all sorts of reasons.....

Ruben wrote:

We should really get at the very least a single post summarizing all the literary and archaeological evidence known so that whenever this discussion inevitably pops up again, it can be pointed to.

I'm working on a first draft of this - and doubtless I'll overlook something, or the summary will be considered biased ( we did one which is buried on the 'Linothorax' thread somewhere, which I'll use as a basis). Everyone can then add to this, maybe wikipaedia style? :wink: :wink:

[PMBardunias]

Sophocles calls it Libyan: A Libyan spolas, a leopardskin

This is an interesting bit that I had not seen before. I don't have an image of this, but I have seen Libyans carved in relief with leopard skins tied on like capes- like Hercules lion skin. I imagine this s what Sophocles had in mind and it makes me think of the connection that Christian pointed out earlier.

[Dan Howard]

Again, Pollux's definition probably only refers to the word's use in the 5th and 4th centuries BC, but this is exactly the period in which there is little other evidence and this debate often becomes most heated and conjectural. Paul posted this quote some time ago, but it always seems to disappear in these discussions. We should really get at the very least a single post summarizing all the literary and archaeological evidence known so that whenever this discussion inevitably pops up again, it can be pointed to.

I agree. This tells us nothing about whether they still wore linen armour at this time. It tells us nothing about earlier types of armour. All it tells us was that there was a type of armour in the 4th-5th century made of leather/hide that Xenophon called a spolas. This is significant however. I'd like to apologise to Paul.

[Paullus Scipio]

The 'onomastikon' definition has been posted before - most notably in the long debate on this subject a year or so ago.

Since that time the only 'new' evidence that seems to have emerged [ to my knowledge] is the excavation of a relatively large number of Macedonian warrior tombs [also covered in a thread here], often containing 'Illyrian' type helmets, with gold death masks and apparently Tube-and-Yoke fittings. The news reports that have surfaced so far also make enigmatic references to 'leather' body armour, but whether this is just a guess, the usual dried out fragments, or something more tangible, is anyone's guess at this stage.

Dan wrote:

I'd like to apologise to Paul.

....not sure which Paul is meant here, but speaking for myself, I cannot recall anything which might merit an apology. Indeed, your posts are often a refreshing reminder not to read too much into any given piece of evidence......

[Kineas]

In the well known picture of the hoplite killing a Persian (it's in Osprey and it' s been posted half a dozen times to this list, so I'll save electrons) the hoplite is almost certainly wearing a pair of goat-skins. Wait--that's an assertion. He's wearing something that is not a normal chiton, and I have to note at this point that a number of literary authors refer to farmers as men who wear leather chiton's. Now, where are those quotes? Lost on my desk, it appears. What word does Aristophanes use? Darn it!

At any rate, it would be possible that all a spola is is a pair of skins worn as a garment hanging from the shoulder, but I can make the opposite argument and say "that's how it started" but as the tube-and yoke came into being, it got the name "spola." for fairly obvious reasons.

Here is the LJ entry for Spola and Stole, which appear to be the same word in different dialects. Has this been discussed before? because Stole is a very interesting word. See the following...

stol-ê , hê, Aeol. spola (q.v.): ( [stellô] ):--

A. equipment, fitting out, stratou A.Supp.764 .

2. armament, Id.Pers.1018 (lyr.).

II. equipment in clothes, raiment, ib.192; schêma Hellados s. S.Ph.224, cf. E.Heracl.130; hippada stolên enestalmenoi Hdt.1.80 ; s. hippikê Ar.Ec.846 ; Skuthikê Hdt.4.78 ; Thrêikia E.Rh.313 ; Mêdikê X.Cyr.8.1.40 ; gunaikeia Ar.Th.851 , cf. 92; toxikê Pl.Lg.833b ; stolên echein ên am boulêtai SIG1003.14 (Priene, ii B.C.): metaph. of birds, s. pterôn Ach.Tat.1.15 .

2. garment, robe, S.OC1357,1597, PCair.Zen.54.32 (pl.), 263.4,8 (iii B.C.), BGU1860.4 (i B.C.), etc.; s. thêros, of the lion's skin which Heracles wore, E.HF465; en s. peripatein in full dress, M.Ant.1.7 (v.l. -liôi ap.Suid.), cf. Ev.Marc.12.38.

3. act of dressing, meta tên s. Orib.Syn.5.21.

Red emphasis is mine...

[Sean Manning]

Put me down as converted too. The last thread made me take the possibility leather armour seriously (although I'm afraid I lost my temper part way through it) and this thread has finished the job. Whenever Greeks started using quilted tube-and-yokes, they were using leather ones in Xenophon's day.

Remind me to cite this thread the next time someone claims that nobody's mind was ever changed arguing on the internet