Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas

[Kineas]

While we're all on this topic again, I'd like to be a heretic and propose that the yoke shoulders do not, in fact, have to stand upright.

Consider the well known tondo of Achilles tending to Patrokles arrow wound.



Note Patrokles shoulder is up.

Also note that the cord or thong for his shoulder is ALSO up--in a nice lazy curl over his head.
Just been reading Bundrick's really excellent article "The Fabric of the City" in Hesperia 77 and although her article is about women and weaving, her analysis of vase illustrations is cogent. In effect, she reminds us that they are not photographs and that in many cases they describe a complete action, not a moment of action. Following her line of reasoning, the artist may simply want you to understand that Patrokles has his shoulder folded back, but lacks the image angle to depict what it really looks like. The clue would be the thong, which would never, of course, stand up in the air. In other words, we might wonder if the whole thing isn't behind his back, out of the picture--but the artist put it there to show us that it had been loosened.

I only brng this up because last night, as I was getting my plates and scales together for a photo, Joe Piela (the armorer) said, "How heavy is the leather going to be?" and I showed him (two layers of 14 oz cowhide) and we flexed it and agreed that, despite being heavier and stiffer than a shoe sole, it wouldn't stand up with the weight fo the 24 guage (that's LIGHT) scales for more than a week or two. Shortly after that, it would soften and fold over--every time. In fact, I'll have to be careful to keep it from cracking over year's of use.

After some talk, we felt (and this IS assertion, no experiment yet" that there was any weight of TANNED leather that would hold the scales and stand upright.

Rigid tawed leather, on the other hand, wouldn't flex back to start with.

So--Joe and I are now questioning the received wisdom that the shoulders actually stand up. It makes sense on those tube and yoke armors--and I can make a leather or a linen version with shoulders that stand up--well, mostly stand up--but as soon as you load them with scales, you have to ask--is this artistic convention? Is this really a depiction of reality? And if it is reality, why does the thong stand up too?

And just for fun, here are my chest plates with about 1/3 of my scales.