Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas

[PMBardunias]

I found this interesting vase image (Berlin 2184). It is interesting because a full view of the side of the T-Y showing seperate panels is somewhat rare. Here the region is shown as dark. This might just be for contrast, or it might indicate something about the material. Anyone have a better resolution image of this?

[John Conyard]

Aren't we just looking at small scales? Probably copper alloy on a leather backing?

[PMBardunias]

Aren't we just looking at small scales? Probably copper alloy on a leather backing?

Perhaps, that's the question. Does the shade indicate that they are different materially than the scales in front and back or just a stylistic alteration of shades?

[barcid]

Aren't we just looking at small scales? Probably copper alloy on a leather backing?

Perhaps, that's the question. Does the shade indicate that they are different materially than the scales in front and back or just a stylistic alteration of shades?

That is the problem ,literary scources are vague & vary , Images & statues are not consistant long & short tube ,various perturges length & unknown base armour with more variations of the depiction of reenforcement eg. scale, lamillar,across all known depictions ,in fact after rereading the thread the bottom line is we dont know. frustrating yes eg. my interest is in Etruscan & punic armour take the sacrad band "Iron armour "Ok what type unknown !, Etruscan" quited Armour ",is it over stiched linen ,leather ,Lamellar small plates is the Etruscan mars depicting any or none of these .my 2c very interesting reading tho thanks dave :?

[John Conyard]

Archaeological finds will always form the basis for any reconstruction, and lacking these finds reconstructing the tube and yoke will always be difficult. It is possible to use iconography and written evidence to support physical finds. And in this case iconography and various written sources are all we have. Period art styles contain a wealth of hidden messages and artistic conventions. Period representations of soldiers must be viewed with “period” sensibilities that are beyond most of us, me included.

This is what makes reconstructing these armours so challenging to me. And I think we have come a long way in terms of materials and patterns used.

I would like to know about more about the scales, the arrangement of holes, and the lacing/wiring methods. I fear I know nothing about Hellenistic scales. This could tell us a bit more about if the armour needed to be lined, or if scale panels were made up separately and then applied to the tube itself. The scales could tell us if the armour was intended rigid or flexible. I appreciate there is another thread considering scales.

[PMBardunias]

Etruscan & punic armour take the sacrad band "Iron armour "Ok what type unknown !,

For what my opinion is worth, I had to consider this when I was writing the AW article on Bagradas, I think the iron armour was lamellar like the Etruscan example above. Such armour was more popular in the near east than it was in Greece, so it made sense to me that the Etruscans adopted it from their close contacts with Carthage.

[Paullus Scipio]

....not to mention that the Etruscans themselves were of Eastern origin, and probably retained direct close ties, not just via their ally against the Greeks, in the form of Carthage...

[barcid]

Yes indeed , i wish to try to reproduce a Lamellar tube & yoke in the future using the Eastern ,Carthage ,Etruscan links as a bases for such a thing . very much in the early planning stage .I am thinking leather base, linen lined with small rectangular Lamellar perhaps 2.5cm x10cm. applied to the leather .My take on it ,Your Thoughts !cheers dave

[MeinPanzer]

Etruscan & punic armour take the sacrad band "Iron armour "Ok what type unknown !,

For what my opinion is worth, I had to consider this when I was writing the AW article on Bagradas, I think the iron armour was lamellar like the Etruscan example above. Such armour was more popular in the near east than it was in Greece, so it made sense to me that the Etruscans adopted it from their close contacts with Carthage.

All the colour depictions we have of Etruscan lamellar armour like that of the Mars Todi show the plates as off-white in colour. Whatever they may be made of, iron seems unlikely.

[barcid]

Etruscan & punic armour take the sacrad band "Iron armour "Ok what type unknown !,

For what my opinion is worth, I had to consider this when I was writing the AW article on Bagradas, I think the iron armour was lamellar like the Etruscan example above. Such armour was more popular in the near east than it was in Greece, so it made sense to me that the Etruscans adopted it from their close contacts with Carthage.

All the colour depictions we have of Etruscan lamellar armour like that of the Mars Todi show the plates as off-white in colour. Whatever they may be made of, iron seems unlikely.

Im sure white is used to represent bright metals :?

[Dan Howard]

I doubt we'll ever know what colours were used to represent. I doubt there was even a standard that all artists adhered to. It is impossible to look at an illustration and determine the material an item was made from unless there are a large number of illustrations done by the same artist, and even then, that convention would only apply to that particular artist.

[MeinPanzer]

I doubt we'll ever know what colours were used to represent. I doubt there was even a standard that all artists adhered to. It is impossible to look at an illustration and determine the material an item was made from unless there are a large number of illustrations done by the same artist, and even then, that convention would only apply to that particular artist.

Well, in these cases (having re-examined the paintings), we can definitely say that the lamellar armour is not iron, because iron objects in the same paintings (swords, spearheads) are greyish-blue. I guess you could argue that the colour of the cuirass was meant to represent tin or silver, but the colour is really much more of a cream colour (one guy wearing such a cuirass wears it over a bright white tunic, and the difference in colour is clear). In all the examples I've seen, the lamellar plates and pteruges are exactly the same colour. Then again, on one depiction from the "Ramtha Hucznai" sarcophagus, a man carries a hoplite's shield with a similarly-coloured porpax, but that is the only example of an object that one would expect to be metallic being this colour on the whole extensive amazonomachy scene on the sarcophagus.

[John Conyard]

It may be the case that the short pteruges, which really are just an extension of the solid tube, are made from the same material and are relatively stiff.

The longer pteruges which sometimes appear flacid, seem to be made of a flexible material such as linen or thin leather, and facilitate sitting down.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Maybe these pics can help you in the discussion. It´s Etruscan, from the Tomba Francois, mais it could be helpful nonetheless.
Anyone ever thought of heavy rawhide covered with linen? Rawhide as such is quite easily derogated by humidity (e.g. sweat). In Dura the solution was that the rawhide scales were laquered. Covering them with linen glued on and painted with oil colour or sealed with linseed oil might result in a very good armour. It would certainly explain why no traces are left from these. Where thick layers of fabric would have survived here and there, rawhide deteriorates very quickly and consummately, once inhumed. Just a thought.
(Oil paint: I read that the Ancient Greeks used oil paint for their ships. If that´s true, then this would be a good solution )



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[url:17dzh7s4]http://www.instoria.it/home/Stitchedefin.jpg[/url]

[nikolaos]

Fascinating picture. The deep aspides are particularly interesting.
Cole