Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas

[John Conyard]

Paul B. was indeed the first to propose tawed leather for armour.

But I doubt tawed leather was used as armour. I suspect, but can't prove that vegetable tanned leather was more popular than tawed leather in Athens. Generally in Europe it was. And alum can be used, as already discussed, to help tan leather. This may have been the process used in Egypt to make armour. Not tawing.

Tanning and tawing are different processes. And alum can be used in both.

So for example alum could be used to produce white vegetable tanned shoes. Vegetable tanned leather shoes are used throughout history. Tawed leather be definition will rot in water and does not seem ideal for shoes. They may need tanned leather soles.

Logical, yes?

[immortal]

Hello,
Im new to the forum, but I am very impressed with the wealth of information available!

This discussion is very interesting, After all of the arguments presented I am inclined to believe that leather was the material used in the construction of the T-Y (a new term for me!)
Before reading this thread I believed, as I expect many did that they were made from linen, with leather being a possibility.

I found this quote from Herodotus concerning the Scythians which may or may not be significant:

"Others flay the right arm of their enemies, and make of the kin, which is stripped off with the nails hanging to it, a covering for their quivers. Now the skin of a man is thick and glossy, and would in whiteness surpass almost all other hides"

This suggests that white hides were available. leather made from human skin is very pale but not true white (you can find images of artifacts made from skin online... usually the product of a serial killer, Nazis or other madmen).

Regards
Steve

[John Conyard]

If I recollect correctly a quiver from Dura was made from the neck of a camel. I've always wanted a quiver like that.......

John

[salimbeti]

Just for clarification.
The two linen corselets I have seen were from a Mycenaean/Proto geometric cemetery near Patras These were dated around 1100 BC.
The two elements were very large about the size of a big human chest, I was able to count at least 10 layers and a piece of embroided edge was still visible. But I can't said if these layer were glued or not.
These two thick linen elements have been found in two different warriors' graves on top of two tripode bronze caulderons . Inside the caulderons some weapons have been found (bronze spear points and iron daggers or knifes ) a substrate of leather was also present inside the caulderons and of course the ashes cremation remains of the warriors.
The Arcaheologist supposed that these large linen elements were more likely the linen corselets of the warrorios placed over the top of the caulderons containig the weapons and the ashes of the warriors.
Other very thick linens remains (about 15 layers) were also attested by Schliemann during his excavation on the 16th Century BC tombs in Mycenae.
So these elements are not from Thebes and are not large like a tumbs!!
I just ironically hipotized that these findings will be published within 50 years ...just because normaly the archaeological discoveries are not published in short time....These elements have been excavated in 2005 and so far non official report seems to be issued.
After so many years I really hope that these elements (which in the excavation site were keeped inside a large refrigerator) could have been placed in some museums.... hopefully the Arcaheologiacl museum in Patras.
Regards
Andrea Salimbeti

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Did the linen pieces have any distinguished shape? What colour? What kind of embroidery?
Khaire
Giannis

[PMBardunias]

The two elements were very large about the size of a big human chest, I was able to count at least 10 layers and a piece of embroided edge was still visible. But I can't said if these layer were glued or not.

Could you tell from the edging if it was the thickness of all of the layers together? This would be evidence against the linen being not multilayer, but a large item folded.

[salimbeti]

The pieces even if still large did not have any more a distinguishable shape Because they were burried and exposed to the soil, also the original colour were not any more identifiable they were brown like the soil. The embroided edge was in the shape of a sewed thicker spirals.
Even if the original shape was not any more identifyable the elements seem to us not bended but just disposed over the caulderons like they were.
The layers were very thin and it was clear that these were part of the elements' thickness in such a way pressed togheter (glued? thightly sewed like a quilted corselet ?...we dont know...) and I was able to count at least 10 from the damaged edges of the elements, but for what I remember some were melted together so more likely the linen layer which actually composed these elements were more than 10 (15 ? 20 ?) so in accordance to what was also found by Schliemman in Mycenae.
Regards
Andrea Salimbeti

[Rhry]

I'm new here and can't pretend any expertise on Greek armor but I think you've been asking the wrong questions with regard to linen armor, whether laminated or quilted. All linen is not the same. For example, commercial linen sail cloth which has not been manufactured in seventy-five years was of various weights and qualities and extremely tough in accordance with its use. The linen used by the Greeks for armor may have been even tougher if especially produced for the purpose.

How was the flax prepared for spinning? What was the quality, weight and structure of the thread? how was the thread finished after spinning? What was the weave weight and fineness of the cloth produced from it? How was that cloth finished after weaving?

All of these questions have to be answered before being able to know how the Greeks were able to use it in armor. The type of linen used might even vary within garment itself depending on what was expected of the particular piece.

The exact details of how the armor was put together would have made a lot of difference as well. For example, in the old days, we used to dampen canvas before painting it. This kept it flexible and waterproof. Paint can also act as a glue between layers, especially if suplemented with stitching. Could the Greeks have incorporated this technique in armor construction? Even minor details of construction could be important making a linothorax into an effective piece of armor.

[Paullus Scipio]

Hardly the "wrong questions".....we have thus far debated the very existence of linen as an armour material for Greeks. We have established that Western Persians used Tube-and-Yoke linen armour, and that a quilted Tube-and-Yoke existed, and that Etruscans used quilted armour also. Greek references are scanty, but in the classical age at least, a hoplite Tube-and-Yoke probably existed made of leather, and called the 'spolas'. After coming into contact with Persian archery, this Tube-and-Yoke was re-inforced with metal scales or rectangular plates in varying forms.

The very term 'linothorax' is a misnomer - a modern term like 'lorica segmentata' though in this case there is virtually no evidence that such a thing existed in classical Greece, let alone what it's name was if it did exist.

I would venture to suggest that one might establish the existence of such a thing before asking questions such as those you pose about the construction of such a hypothetical object...... D

[Matt Lukes]

I would venture to suggest that one might establish the existence of such a thing before asking questions such as those you pose about the construction of such a hypothetical object...... D

So then it's pretty much accepted that the suggestion linen was ever used is completely unsupported? I've only relatively recently become interested in things Greek, beyond the generalities I've read over the years and have now dismissed having learned that much that's stated as fact is more than dubious :lol: So I'm looking at great discussions like this to find the primary evidence, and 10 pages has been a bit tough. Just to clarify for my dumb ass, and anyone else who braves this thread not knowing sooo much- it does seem that the references to linen are not readily accpeted because of source, context and date, but that there is some better evidence for the use of leather- whether that is rawhide, tawed or tanned leather is uncertain. Does that sum it up relatively accurately?

I do like the idea of a composite though- leather/rawhide faced with linen, given what I know about the problems with rawhide, and the efficacy of linen facings in other composite pieces such as shields. Would that perhaps work and help with some of the seeming issues?

[Rhry]

With respect, I disagree, at least in part with what Paulus Scipio just wrote. Having read all ten pages of postings, it appears to me that a great deal has been postulated but little actually established.

What is certain is that there was a form of flexible armor widely depicted in Greek art.

The objections to laminated linen armor seem to be that there is little literary or archaeological evidence to confirm it and that it would be impractical in any event.

Its my understanding that we have a very imperfect knowledge of what ancient Greeks actually called things and terms etymologically similar to “linothorax” are, in fact, used in at least four known instances by three writers. Not a large sampling but acceptable given the relatively small number of ancient writings commonly available. Likewise, little linen survives in any context from that era., although a convincing sample was described a few postings ago.

Postings which have concentrated on the impracticality of laminated linen armor have talked about the inability of linen to withstand combat and glue failure due to heat and sweat. I don’t buy those arguments. The physical properties of the relevant materials available to the Greeks were not the same as those of the materials easily available to us. Research is needed before anything authoritative can be said on that account. That is what I was getting at.

Further, just because the tube and yoke style is not seen until Archaic times, doesn't mean that there was no continuity in armor construction from Mycenean times. It would seem odd if they had fogotten everything their ancestors knew about making armor.

I would not dismiss laminated linen armor out of hand as many in this thread have.

There is also no evidence from the sources quoted that the spolas was anything other than the poncho-like garment made of animal hide depicted on several vase paintings. Such garments fit the written description of the spolas perfectly and can be very affective against weapons. Buffalo and bearskin coats have been known to repel bullets!

I don’t know how this flexible armor was made but the evidence that it was made of linen in some form of construction seems at least as good as the evidence that it was made from leather.

[Dan Howard]

The objections to laminated linen armor seem to be that there is little literary or archaeological evidence to confirm it and that it would be impractical in any event.

It definitely isn't impractical. Quilted layered linen is by far the most common form of textile armour. It was used in Asia, India, the Middle East, and Europe over a long period of time. In addition, whenever leather is used in conjunction with textiles, it is almost invariably used only as a protective cover with the linen layers underneath providing the protection. I am pretty sure that the Myceneaans used layered linen armour. I am not so sure about the Classical or Hellenistic periods. I doubt that glue was used in its construction for two reasons. Firstly, there is no precedent for its use in any culture that I can find. Secondly, my tests against various samples indicate that quilted layers actually provide better protection than the same number of glued layers.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I agree with Rhry,that some time now people have alaborated a lot on the different reasons that indeed leather was the construction matterial of that kind of armour. Well, it is good that people have started testing and comparing different kinds of leather,but again it is not certain at all that linen is ruled out. Linen is mentioned as armour more frequently than leather and one can only asume in what context,but in addition to the fact that people in this list have actually seen late mycenean linen armour...it is not wise to go to the other end than the previous state.
Also in sculpture there are indeed depictions of usually late classical pteryges that are clearly not leather. I'm speaking about the long,thin,soft pteryges. Lets remind that there are only rumors about leather pieces that could belong to armour to have been found in macedonian graves and no one has ever seen them or has information on their thickness or size. The information that was being mentioned here i think first by Paullus for a long time but only recently seems to have been noticed by everybody is that a lexicon of the second century AD(am i correct?) said that spolas is a thorax of leather touching (attached to) the shoulders,and quotes Xenophon to be using the word "spolas" instead of "thorax". This is GREAT find, but it simply is not conclusive as Paul states.
First of all, Pollux's phraze doesn't make it clear if Xenophon used the word "spolas" in some case instead of the word "thorax",which would mean that spolas is a kind of thorax. Instead,Xenophon could have said "and (he was wearing) a spolas instead of thorax" which means that a spolas is something different than a thorax(cuirass). And again,the statement that "thorax" is a word that meant only metal cuirass does not have any base. For i can assure that the word thorax means like today the human torso and in extension anything that covers it. I can also assure that it was being used since mycenean times if not earlier to mean body armour and we know that myceneans didn't use only metal for body armour.
So the best answer is that we're still at a loss concerning the matterial of this kind of cuirass, but in any case both theories of linen and leather have a strong base and nothing is conclusive. The combination of the two matterials is not supported by any evidence. Their usage together by re-enactors was made for convenience in construction.
Khaire
Giannis

[Archelaos]

We also have mysterious kotthybos from Amphipolis code. It was suggested that it is a form of word kossymbos which is explained by one of lexicographers, Hesychius, as perizoma aigyption, and Egyptians are known to use linen armour.

[Matt Lukes]

Secondly, my tests against various samples indicate that quilted layers actually provide better protection than the same number of glued layers.

This intrigues me as it seems quite counterintuitive- that a soft 'version' of the same material would be superior to a solid one- I would love to see an elaboration in a separate thread on performance of the different options for this kind of armour, for example. Last night I decided to try out the glued version since I have a lot of hide glue and scraps of nice linen left over from a Roman scutum project, and I'll have to try out a quilted version too now.