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Weight and grip of sarissa and shield in macedonian phalanx
#16
Quote:
Quote:Note too that the shield is at an angle to the body (not square) and this is how synapsismos/locked shields was able to be formed with the sarissae protruding.

But the question remains, how much space was then occupied by single soldier. Personally, I don't think that much less than Polybios three feet of frontage woulb be practicable. Warry's 0,5 (or rather 0,45 m) seems simply to restricting for phalangites to use their weapons.
About the term "synapsismos" itself - my Greek is not very good, so could you explain if it means literally "locked" or "close (one to another)" shields.
Peter Connolly got a phalanx of 16 hoplites together in 2000 and armed them with small round shields on telamons and sarissas 5.8 m long (12 Athenian cubits) weighing 4 kg. They had no problem forming up with two cubits per man then closing up to one cubit per man. They found that they naturally closed up this tight if the front rank pretended to be stuck in combat while the rear ranks tried to push forwards- which is consistent with later testimony that pike formations tended to get crowded as combat wore on. In fact, they found that keeping the right spacing between ranks was more important to allow free movement and the use of weapons.
Nullis in verba

I have not checked this forum frequently since 2013, but I hope that these old posts have some value. I now have a blog on books, swords, and the curious things humans do with them.
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#17
Just thought I'd post a comparison of the large and small spear heads along side the sauroter we discussed earlier. It pretty clear that the large head is too large.

Also, any opinions on the function of the flanges on the sauroter?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#18
....also notice the cross-section of the small head - it is actually hollow, for lightness.....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#19
Quote:....also notice the cross-section of the small head - it is actually hollow, for lightness.....

Though the mid-rib is actually broader and presumably stiffer than the large head. This head would pierce armor better.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#20
Quote:It's abundantly clear from evidence that different types of shields were in use among phalangites, including the "classic" small, shallow pelte (such as the examples found at Pergamon, Florina, Staro Bonce, etc.) which was around 60 cm in diameter; the extremely convex larger shield; and the large, fairly shallow shield. There were probably variants in between as well, of course, and I have no doubt that the old thinking that the offset rim of the aspis made it unusable by phalangites is simply untrue.

I would agree with all of the above.

Quote:I am a bit troubled by how limited the range of motion is for that front arm if the shoulder-strap is taut enough to support the weight of the sarissa. Anyone here recreated this and tried it?

As Paul M-S has said, the baldric is not for the support of the sarisa. More likely it supports the shield. The hoplite, with a shield arm, grips and manoeuvrers his shield whereas the phalangite grips his sarisa. Having not re-enacted this I’m guessing but it would appear that the baldric keeps the shield’s aspect upright as the phalangite cannot grip with his left hand? Its other use will have been to sling it off the soldier’s back on the march.

Quote: In fact, they found that keeping the right spacing between ranks was more important to allow free movement and the use of weapons.

Indeed, it is logical as Spock would say. Hence the Hellenistic tactical manuals are on the money with the pyknosis or “closed for action” formation of some three feet. This being the formation in which a charge is delivered.

Such would definitely have needed to be the case for Alexander’s scare-mongering drill for the benefit of the Taulantians.

The smaller spear point has always made more sense to me as far as sarisae are concerned (as I think Paul M-S and myself have agreed privately). I can’t remember whether or not the flanged sauroter is stamped “Mak”. Must check when I get home. It does, though, seem about right as a counterweight to the smaller head. The purpose of the flanges? Perhaps they looked good?
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

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#21
Quote:As Paul M-S has said, the baldric is not for the support of the sarisa. More likely it supports the shield. The hoplite, with a shield arm, grips and manoeuvrers his shield whereas the phalangite grips his sarisa. Having not re-enacted this I’m guessing but it would appear that the baldric keeps the shield’s aspect upright as the phalangite cannot grip with his left hand? Its other use will have been to sling it off the soldier’s back on the march.

Either way, if it is tight enough to support the shield in any manner, wouldn't it severely limit the range of motion of the front arm? Also, remember that many aspises are depicted with internal slings (in addition to the usual rope around the inside circumference). What is the evidence that the sling was used in battle at all? Or conversely that the shield was not simply hanging by the sling when the sarissa was employed?

Quote:It's abundantly clear from evidence that different types of shields were in use among phalangites, including the "classic" small, shallow pelte (such as the examples found at Pergamon, Florina, Staro Bonce, etc.) which was around 60 cm in diameter; the extremely convex larger shield; and the large, fairly shallow shield.

I have reason to believe that they are all simply aspises. Does anyone have the original greek of the three versions of this passage from Aelian, Arrian, And Asclepiodotus:

"The macedonian shield, made of brass, is the best. It must not be too hollow and must be 8 hands in diameter" Aelian Taktika XII

I'm interested in the nuances of translation, specifically if it can be read that the best of the shields are not too hollow- commenting on the quality of not too hollow shields- as opposed to the best of the various types of shields that can be used by sarissaphoroi being that which was not too hollow. Which is how it is usually translated and a functional explanation of the flattening aiding in holding the sarissa proposed.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#22
Quote:I have reason to believe that they are all simply aspises. Does anyone have the original greek of the three versions of this passage from Aelian, Arrian, And Asclepiodotus:

"The macedonian shield, made of brass, is the best. It must not be too hollow and must be 8 hands in diameter" Aelian Taktika XII

I'm interested in the nuances of translation, specifically if it can be read that the best of the shields are not too hollow- commenting on the quality of not too hollow shields- as opposed to the best of the various types of shields that can be used by sarissaphoroi being that which was not too hollow. Which is how it is usually translated and a functional explanation of the flattening aiding in holding the sarissa proposed.

I do not have the original Greek from Aelian or Arrian, but the Greek from Asclepiodotus reads:

"The best shield (aspis) for use in the phalanx is the Macedonian, of bronze, eight palms in diameter, and not too concave" (Asclepiodotus 5.1)

Which sounds exactly like Aelian's statement. I don't think the Greek is clear enough to be able to distinctly judge one way or the other, but I certainly think that interpreting it in the latter way - that is, that this statement refers to the concave shields as being the best shields of all that were employed by phalangites, rather than the shields best suited for phalangites of any in use by any troops whatsoever. This way we can account for the various types of shields in use by phalangites in Asclepiodotus' prescriptive statement, in the same way that Xenophon's statement about kopides being employed by cavalry in "On Horsemanship" implies that while such a sword was preferable to others in his eyes, they were clearly not the only kind in use.

As for your statement that they all simply aspides, what do you mean? Aspis could have such a general meaning that when Asclepiodotus says that this is a shield, he is simply describing it without the baggage of the term pelte, in the same way that an author writing for a general audience might simply call a howitzer a gun, for instance, rather than using a specific term. (He also calls phalangites hoplites, for instance.)

But if you mean to say that you think they are all simply hoplite shields, then I would strongly disagree based on a lot of evidence.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#23
Quote:As for your statement that they all simply aspides, what do you mean? Aspis could have such a general meaning that when Asclepiodotus says that this is a shield, he is simply describing it without the baggage of the term pelte, in the same way that an author writing for a general audience might simply call a howitzer a gun, for instance, rather than using a specific term. (He also calls phalangites hoplites, for instance.

Pertinent point and one that should be noted - including your previous reference to the use of "hoplite".

The use of the word "aspis", as with "hoplite", in many sources is often rather utilitarian or "non-technical". Arrian, for example, refers to Macedonian phalangites (when he does so directly) quite often as "hoplites". It appears a utilitarian term for "heavy infantry". I rather suspect that aspis found similar use. The ancient Greeks - as with many modern people - were not that "anal" about their use. It occurs with terms such as "shield bearers" (hypaspitae) where Diodorus describes the "shield bearers" being followed (in the Camels' Fort assault) by the "ladder bearers". As Bosworth argues, the term is descriptive of the action rather than the Silver Shields in contrast to 17.110.1 where Diodorus is clearly refering to the foot guard or hypaspists.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#24
[url:1w1fb9t1]http://www.abdn.ac.uk/virtualmuseum/fetch_image.php?directory=0785/&image=img0067.jpg[/url]
Here´s a working link to the illustration from above... ^^
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#25
Quote:That's the one. Yes, that strap around the shoulder is the baldric for the scabbard and not a strap for the shield. The thureos could be an aspis done in perspective, but I don't think so - I can't think of examples of shields being shown in perspective like that from Hellenistic art. As for whether this guy is a hoplite, the angle and method with which he is holding the spear seems to me to be very awkward without the support of the left arm. It is particularly how far back it is that makes me think he is holding it with both arms.

It is a fascinating piece of art and highly unfortunate that so much of the detail is eroded.

Whilst it is not “impossible” that this is a hoplite holding a dory underarm, it is difficult to conceive why he would do so – particularly with that grip. I agree with Ruben that the grip – especially the rearward aspect of the right hand and the extrapolated placement of the left hand being near to a yard ahead of the right – clearly indicates something longer and heavier than a dory. The fellow’s legs have suffered some deterioration but there seems an indication of greaves – unlike the bloke to the rear who strikes me as “attendant” light infantry.

I might could be ‘seeing things’ though….
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#26
Quote:It is a fascinating piece of art and highly unfortunate that so much of the detail is eroded.

Whilst it is not “impossible” that this is a hoplite holding a dory underarm, it is difficult to conceive why he would do so – particularly with that grip. I agree with Ruben that the grip – especially the rearward aspect of the right hand and the extrapolated placement of the left hand being near to a yard ahead of the right – clearly indicates something longer and heavier than a dory.

I am not so certain anymore, unfortunately... see this relief from a 3rd c. BC Macedonian bowl illustrating a Homeric duel:

http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/grip.JPG

This clearly shows a one-handed grip of a doru that passes the shield at the exact same height as the Glasgow relief and yet is held even farther back.

Quote:The fellow’s legs have suffered some deterioration but there seems an indication of greaves – unlike the bloke to the rear who strikes me as “attendant” light infantry.

I might could be ‘seeing things’ though….

The other picture I have with different lighting does not show any traces of greaves.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#27
Ruben, Paralus,

I think in light of the images Ruben posted and others like below of a Theban stele, the safest bet would be a hoplite. Of course we cannot be certain, but this would appear to be in the "cannon" of hoplite poses.

If true this leaves us with exactly one poor quality and confused image of sarissaphoroi! Great find though Ruben either eway. Do you guys know of any studies on readig steles such as this? Is the image supposed to be a man and one of his companions? Himself in different poses? I'm sure someone must have done some comparative work on these.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#28
Quote:Ruben, Paralus,

I think in light of the images Ruben posted and others like below of a Theban stele, the safest bet would be a hoplite. Of course we cannot be certain, but this would appear to be in the "cannon" of hoplite poses.

I agree with you on this point. As much as I would like it to be a depiction of a phalangite, the evidence shows otherwise, and the evidence is always right!

Quote:Do you guys know of any studies on readig steles such as this? Is the image supposed to be a man and one of his companions? Himself in different poses? I'm sure someone must have done some comparative work on these.

Pfuhl and Moebius' Die ostgriechischen Grabreliefs is essential for examining Hellenistic funerary stelae. Unfortunately there is little beyond the general shape of this piece to indicate its purpose.

This could be a funerary stele, but I don't know of any examples that have full scenes of combat depicted lengthwise like this. The long horizontal format of the stele as well as its style suggest an east Greek origin, while its design may indicate that it was a votive relief, but I don't think much more can be said than that. I do know of another fragment, also of marble, which is very similar in style to this one, though it is held in Italy now. It's a shame the website doesn't give dimensions for the Glasgow stele, as I could then compare dimensions and see if these are closely related. They were both acquired in the 1800's, apparently, though the Glasgow example around the middle of the century and this one toward its end:

http://antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/eastgreek1.JPG
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#29
Quote:Ruben, Paralus,

I think in light of the images Ruben posted and others like below of a Theban stele, the safest bet would be a hoplite. Of course we cannot be certain, but this would appear to be in the "cannon" of hoplite poses.

Quote:I agree with you on this point. As much as I would like it to be a depiction of a phalangite, the evidence shows otherwise, and the evidence is always right!

Agreed.
Paralus|Michael Park

Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους

Wicked men, you are sinning against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander!

Academia.edu
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#30
Quote:As much as I would like it to be a depiction of a phalangite

I'm with you on this, I wish we had some more images. I am finding that the more I investigate the shields of sarissaphoroi the less I "know". Sarissaphoroi are a far more complex troop type than generally acknowledged. For example- the idea that the smaller pelta and only the small sized pelta allowed the sarissa to be used must surely be questioned, as Ruben suggested, in light of the large domed shields.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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